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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #15 - 05.07.2005 at 09:37:03
 
Quote:
Friendliness is unfocused, unaddressed love. It is not any contract, spoken or unspoken. It is not from one individual to another individual; it is from one individual to the whole existence, of which man is only a small part, because trees are included, animals are included, rivers are included, mountains are included, stars are included. Everything is included in friendliness

Just an intellectual understanding will not be enough — although it is good to have some intellectual understanding, because that may help you move towards existential experience. But only the experience will give you the full taste of the tremendous sweetness, the beauty, the godliness and the truth of love.




Men tale 'prijateljskot' zveni kot bolj ali manj posrečen  poskus intelektualne zapopadljivosti vseobsegajoče/brezpogojna ljubezeni, ki jo zgolj intelektualno ni mogoče zapopast. Zanjo jo potrebna eksistencialna izkušnja.
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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #16 - 05.07.2005 at 10:26:02
 
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What does Osho say about real friendship?  

What is real, authentic friendliness?
 

The question you have asked is very complex. You will have to understand a few other things before you can understand what real authentic friendliness is.

The first is friendship. Friendship is love without any biological tones to it. It is not the friendship that you understand ordinarily — the boyfriend, the girlfriend. To use the word friend in any way associated with biology is sheer stupidity. It is infatuation and madness. You are being used by biology for reproduction purposes.

If you think you are in love, you are wrong; it is just hormonal attraction. Your chemistry can be changed and your love will disappear. Just an injection of hormones and a man can become a woman and a woman can become a man.

Friendship is love without any biological tones. It has become a rare phenomenon. It used to be a great thing in the past, but a few great things in the past have completely disappeared. It is a very strange thing that ugly things are stubborn, they don’t die easily; and beautiful things are very fragile, they die and disappear very easily.

Today friendship is understood either in biological terms or in economic terms, or in sociological terms — in terms of acquaintance, a kind of acquaintance. But friendship means that if the need arises you will be ready even to sacrifice yourself. Friendship means that you have made somebody else more important than yourself; somebody else has become more precious than you yourself. It is not a business. It is love in its purity.


This friendship is possible even the way you are now. Even unconscious people can have such a friendship. But if you start becoming more conscious of your being, then friendship starts turning into friendliness. Friendliness has a wider connotation, a far bigger sky. Friendship is a small thing compared to friendliness. Friendship can be broken, the friend can turn into an enemy. That possibility remains intrinsic in the very fact of friendship.


I am reminded of Machiavelli giving guidance to the princes of the world in his great work, The Prince. One of his guidelines is, Never tell anything to your friend which you would not be able to say to your enemy, because the person who is a friend today may turn into an enemy tomorrow. And the suggestion following that is, Never say anything against the enemy, because the enemy can turn into a friend tomorrow. Then you will be very embarrassed.

Machiavelli is giving a very clear insight: that our ordinary love can change into hate, our friendship can become enmity any moment. This is the unconscious state of man — where love is hiding hate just behind it, where you hate the same person you love but you are not aware of it.

Friendliness becomes possible only when you are real, you are authentic, and you are absolutely aware of your being. And out of this awareness, if love arises it will be friendliness. Friendliness can never change into its opposite. Remember this as a criterion, that the greatest values of life are only those which cannot change into their opposite; in fact there is no opposite.

You are asking, “What is real authentic friendliness?” It will need a great transformation in you to have a taste of friendliness. As you are, friendliness is a faraway star. You can have a look at the faraway star, you can have a certain intellectual understanding, but it will remain only an intellectual understanding, not an existential taste.

Unless you have an existential taste of friendliness, it will be very difficult, almost impossible to make a distinction between friendship and friendliness. Friendliness is the purest thing you can conceive about love. It is so pure that you cannot even call it a flower, you can only call it a fragrance which you can feel and experience, but you cannot catch hold of. It is there, your nostrils are full of it, your being is surrounded by it. You feel the vibe, but there is no way to catch hold of it; the experience is so big and so vast and our hands are too small.

I said to you that your question is very complex, not because of the question, but because of you. You are not yet at the point from where friendliness can become an experience. Be real, be authentic and you will know the purest quality of love — just a fragrance of love surrounding you always. And that quality of the purest love is friendliness. Friendship is addressed to someone, somebody is your friend.

Once Gautam Buddha was asked, “Does the enlightened man have friends?” and he said, “No.” The questioner was shocked because he was thinking the man who is enlightened must have the whole world as his friend. But Gautam Buddha is right, whether you are shocked or not. When he says, “The enlightened man has no friends,” he is saying he cannot have friends because he cannot have enemies. They both come together. Friendliness he can have, but not friendship.

Friendliness is unfocused, unaddressed love. It is not any contract, spoken or unspoken. It is not from one individual to another individual; it is from one individual to the whole existence, of which man is only a small part, because trees are included, animals are included, rivers are included, mountains are included, stars are included. Everything is included in friendliness.

Friendliness is just the way of your being real and authentic; you start radiating it. It comes on its own accord, you don’t have to bring it. Whoever comes close to you will feel the friendliness. That does not mean that nobody will be your enemy. As far as you are concerned, you will not be an enemy of anyone, because you are no more a friend to anyone. But your height, your consciousness, your blissfulness, your silence, your peace will annoy many, will irritate many, will make many, without understanding you, your enemies.

In fact the enlightened men have more enemies than the unenlightened. The unenlightened may have a few enemies, a few friends. The enlightened men have almost the whole world antagonistic towards them, because the blind people cannot forgive the man who has eyes, and the ignorant cannot forgive one who knows. They cannot feel love towards a man who has attained to his fulfillment, because their egos are hurt.

The enlightened man has no friends, no enemies, but only a pure love, unaddressed. He is ready to pour into anybody’s heart who is available. That is real authentic friendliness.

Just an intellectual understanding will not be enough — although it is good to have some intellectual understanding, because that may help you move towards existential experience. But only the experience will give you the full taste of the tremendous sweetness, the beauty, the godliness and the truth of love.



Osho tako samo poskuša prodajati svoja jajca in tako ne počne nič drugega kot vsi religiozneži že pred njim: vzame neko besedo nek pojem, nato pa vse skupaj razširi do neskončnosti (do brezpomenskosti), pri čemer ne pozabi poudariti, da to ve samo on, ostali omejenci pa bomo mogoče nekoč lahko to vedeli, če mu bomo vdano sledili.

Kar pa še vedno ne pomeni, da je potrebno zato izumljati nove besede, ki vse skupaj samo še dodatno zameglijo - če pogledamo vsebino, je to popolnoma isto, kot če uvedemo neko brezpogojno ljubezen, ali sprejemanje, ali naklonjenost, ali ljubeznivost. Vseskupaj je tragikomično; kot, da bi rekel: "Ja zaljubljenost lahko doživite tudi vi nevedni, vendar pa zaljubljenost lahko mine in se sprevrže v nasprotje, medtem ko je ljubezen večna in neminljiva." (u bistvu je še slabše je cca tako: "Ljubezen med dvema je minljiva in se lahko sprevrže v sovraštvo - medtem ko je ljubeznivost večna. Saj si lahko nadvse ljubezniv, medtem ko svojemu nasprotniku prerežeš vrat.")

Sicer še vedno dopuščam možnost, da je bil Osho razsvetljen, kot mojster pa je navaden blefer, saj ne počne ničesar drugega kot obrača prispodobe na način, kot vsi bleferski mojstri pred in za njim.
(bistvo mojsterstva je v tem, da narediš nove mojstre, ne pa v ustvarjanju blejajočih ovc - razsvetljenje je stopnja spoznanja: naslednja (višja) stopnja mojsterstva pa je to spoznanje posredovati drugim)



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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #17 - 05.07.2005 at 11:36:27
 
Ne razumem te, t, zakaj vztrajaš, da je beseda prijateljskost izumljena na novo, če ni ???

A je potemtakem SSKJ dokončen tak kot je?

Itak pa da mojstri lahko govorijo le v prispodobah.
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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #18 - 05.07.2005 at 11:44:12
 
Quote:
Ne razumem te, t, zakaj vztrajaš, da je beseda prijateljskost izumljena na novo, če ni ???


Seveda je - ni je niti v korpusu, niti v slovarjih, niti je nisem še nikjer drugje videl (in takšne neboloze mi hitro padejo v oči). Mogoče mi ti lahko daš še kakšen drug primer?


Quote:
A je potemtakem SSKJ dokončen tak kot je?


Ne ni.


Quote:
Itak pa da mojstri lahko govorijo le v prispodobah.


Se ne strinjam - pravi mojstri ne potrebujejo nobenih prispodob (oziroma jih uporabljajo samo za ilustracije ali primere). Vendar je razlika med mojstri, ki  imajo svoje prispodobe in tistimi, ki parazitirajo na nekem širšem, splošneje sprejetem fondu.



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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #19 - 05.07.2005 at 12:11:29
 
Quote:
Osho pa bi razumel tvojo neprijateljskost, predvidevam 8):

q
In fact the enlightened men have more enemies than the unenlightened. The unenlightened may have a few enemies, a few friends. The enlightened men have almost the whole world antagonistic towards them, because the blind people cannot forgive the man who has eyes, and the ignorant cannot forgive one who knows. They cannot feel love towards a man who has attained to his fulfillment, because their egos are hurt.
q



Dvomim: - sicer pa je po teh kriterijih dandanes ogromno "razsvetljenih" diktatorjev, vladarjev, špicljev, politkomisarjev in ultrakapitalističnih gospodarjev. V tem smislu sta Hitler in Stalin neskončno bolj razsvetljena od Oshota, po levi pa ga prehitevajo tudi Pol Pot, Sadam,  Bush in še kašen plemenski poglavar s krvavimi rokami. Po teh kriterijih je Osho razsvetljen toliko kot kakšna Mica Cajnarjeva.



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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #20 - 06.07.2005 at 15:32:26
 


OSHO [/center]


Špoštovani forumci!

V kakršno koli ločevanje vodi v razdvojenost in posledično v konflikte.
v razmislek vam prilagam eno od raziskav na katero se sklicujem.

Odpravo miselnosti ,da duh velja več kot telo,človeško več kot nečloveško,moško več kot žensko itn. Da ta miselnost prevladuje vso zahodno miselnost od Platona dalje in se je do danes ohranila preko krščanske tradicije,kartezijanstva (,filozofije razsvetljenstva,liberalizma-svobodomiselnosti deklaracije o pravicah človeka,francoske revolucije itn.katera vsaka od naštetih etap je danes prevladujoča v patrijahalni ideologiji.


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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #21 - 06.07.2005 at 15:35:22
 
Ločil si pravkar ti.
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Re: Prijateljskost
Reply #22 - 06.07.2005 at 15:51:11
 

Špoštovani prijatelj!

Nevem zakaj si tako burno reagiral.

sam želim poudarit,da kakršno koli višje in nižje v tekstih in besedilih različnega izvora se pojavi prizvok ali misel majn in več vreden.



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