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exorcist
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Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel križanj
22.05.2004 at 12:46:55
 

1. Zakaj so 1997 zažgali torinsko katedralo, kjer hranijo prt?
2. Zakaj so 1988 namerno naredili napačno radiokarbonsko analizo za datacijo mrtvaškega prta, saj se je šele leta 2002 kardinal Severino Paletti opravičil in potrdil pristnost prta?

ODGOVOR: Zato, ker Cerkev uči, da je bila njegova smrt nujno potrebna za našo odrešitev. Zato se je hotela znebiti prta, ki predstavlja dokaz o preživetju Jezusa.
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exorcist
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #1 - 22.05.2004 at 12:48:18
 
Psalm 82, verz6:
"Jaz sem rekel: Bogovi ste, sinovi Najvišjega, vi vsi."

V evangeliju po Janezu Jezus odgovarja Judom na njihovo obtožbo, da se dela Boga: "Ali ni zapisano v vaši postavi: Jaz sem rekel: bogovi ste?"(Jn, 10,34)

To je zame še dodaten dokaz, da najdemo Boga in svoje odrešenje v lastnem jazu, in ne v zunanjem svetu.
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #2 - 22.05.2004 at 12:56:54
 
exorcist wrote on 22.05.2004 at 12:48:18:
Psalm 82, verz6:
"Jaz sem rekel: Bogovi ste, sinovi Najvišjega, vi vsi."

V evangeliju po Janezu Jezus odgovarja Judom na njihovo obtožbo, da se dela Boga: "Ali ni zapisano v vaši postavi: Jaz sem rekel: bogovi ste?"(Jn, 10,34)

To je zame še dodaten dokaz, da najdemo Boga in svoje odrešenje v lastnem jazu, in ne v zunanjem svetu.



exo, pa ti si postal pravi newagejevec  Wink


(za pravega katoličana je popolnoma jasno, da odrešenje pride samo po milosti Božji v zavetju svete RKC)



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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #3 - 22.05.2004 at 13:09:15
 
exorcist wrote on 22.05.2004 at 12:46:55:
1. Zakaj so 1997 zažgali torinsko katedralo, kjer hranijo prt?
2. Zakaj so 1988 namerno naredili napačno radiokarbonsko analizo za datacijo mrtvaškega prta, saj se je šele leta 2002 kardinal Severino Paletti opravičil in potrdil pristnost prta?

ODGOVOR: Zato, ker Cerkev uči, da je bila njegova smrt nujno potrebna za našo odrešitev. Zato se je hotela znebiti prta, ki predstavlja dokaz o preživetju Jezusa.


sicer zanimiva teorija zarote, vendar pa bi se moral vprašati predvsem

ad 1: Kdo je zažgal torinsko katedralo?
(šele, ko boš lahko z največjo gotovostjo odgovoril, da RKC, potem boš lahko sklepal, na zgornjo zaroto - kaj pa, če so prt poskusili uničiti sovražniki RKC, da bi lahko uveljavili svoje?)

ad 2: še vedno obstaja vprašanje, zakaj se je kardinal sploh opravičil - konec koncev so imeli še veliko drugih možnosti, da se prta znebijo, karbonska analiza pa bi vseeno obveljala


teorija zarote, ki je možna, je pa malo verjetno, da bi se instituciji, kot je RKC, zgodile takšne napake; prej bi dejal, da je mogoče kardinal Severino poskušal na svojo pest menjati analize, vendar pa so ga nato nadrejeni ustavili


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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #4 - 22.05.2004 at 16:21:16
 
mhmm,  jaz tudi mislim, da če bi ga res hoteli uničit,  da potem bi ga že zdavnaj skurli v prvem šporhertu, ga odnesli v ruzaku in zakopali v prvi kup gnoja,  ga vrgli v najbližjo reko.
Samo jim ta prt preveč pomeni da bi ga kar tako kenslali.

Baje je tip še dolgo po tem, po križanju, učil v Indiji.
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exorcist
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #5 - 22.05.2004 at 16:31:21
 
t wrote on 22.05.2004 at 13:09:15:
sicer zanimiva teorija zarote, vendar pa bi se moral vprašati predvsem

ad 1: Kdo je zažgal torinsko katedralo?
(šele, ko boš lahko z največjo gotovostjo odgovoril, da RKC, potem boš lahko sklepal, na zgornjo zaroto - kaj pa, če so prt poskusili uničiti sovražniki RKC, da bi lahko uveljavili svoje?)

ad 2: še vedno obstaja vprašanje, zakaj se je kardinal sploh opravičil - konec koncev so imeli še veliko drugih možnosti, da se prta znebijo, karbonska analiza pa bi vseeno obveljala


teorija zarote, ki je možna, je pa malo verjetno, da bi se instituciji, kot je RKC, zgodile takšne napake; prej bi dejal, da je mogoče kardinal Severino poskušal na svojo pest menjati analize, vendar pa so ga nato nadrejeni ustavili


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Imaš prav.... Ampak prt dokazuje, da je ta človek, domnevno Jezus, ki je bil v njega zavit, krvavel, ampak kot veš, mrliči ne krvavijo, zato je moral biti živ? Z radiokarbonsko metodo pa so domnevno dali nekateri cerkveni dostojanstveniki tkanino iz 13 st., ne pa iz torinskega prta. Obstajajo celo dokazi, da si tile znanstveniki, ki so delali študije, dobili podkupnine, ki so bile nakazane z neznanega anonimnega darovalca, ampak ironično je to, da ravno na veliki petek.
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #6 - 22.05.2004 at 16:36:50
 
Quote:
Baje je tip še dolgo po tem, po križanju, učil v Indiji.



kar se prta tiče, je le ta (če je zares pristen) samo nekakšen forenzični dokaz, da Jezus na križu ni umrl: in to zadošča (vsaj deloma) tudi RKC, čeprav je njena osnovna dogma, da je Jezus na križu umrl in nato tretji dan vstal od mrtvih (seveda pa lahko tudi to njegovo "smrt" pojasnimo na več načinov)

kar pa se tiče tega "baje", je to ravno toliko verjetno, kot da bi šel pasti ovce ali obdelovati zemljo in živeti mirno družinsko življenje - je samo še ena od možnosti, ki jih lahko postavimo ob bok njegovemu vnebohodu, čeprav bi bilo bolj točno reči samo, da je v nekem trenutku (če je verjeti Bibliji 40 dni po njegovem vstajenju) izginil


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DaBi
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #7 - 22.05.2004 at 16:40:44
 
Ja, sej, baje, ..ne trdim ničesar.  

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exorcist
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #8 - 22.05.2004 at 17:06:10
 

Namreč torinski prt je forenzični dokaz, da je ta človek, ki je bil zavit v njega, preživel križanje, ni umrl. Zanimivo je tudi to, da je križanje trajajo bore 3 h, pri čemer se je še Pilat začudil, da je tako hitro "umrl", če veš, da se je lahko agonija križanja podaljšala vse do 5 dni, pod drugo mu niso strli nog, da bi se prej zadušil, ter ga tako rešili trpljenja in mučenja, da bi po kapljicah umiral, kot so storili levemu in desnemu razbojniku. Poleg tega pa je bil Jezus krepak človek, cirka 180 cm visok in 79 kg težak. Čudno je tudi to, da je, preden je umrl, ko so mu ponudili kis, še zavpil, kar je zopet sila čudno, če vemo, da človek v takih primerih ni bil sposoben izustiti niti besedice, ker se je dušil, če ne bi imel nog pribitih, ki so mu nudile podporo, bi še prej izdihnil. Razen če se je v kisu nahajal kak opijat, ki ga je omamil, da je bil videti navidezno mrtev (plitvo dihanje, zmanjšanje frekvence bitja srca). Zakaj so rabili 30 kg aloe vere in mire pri maziljenju, čeprav bi zadostovalo kake 3kg. Morda z namenom, ker vemo, da ti dve rastlini delujeta antiseptično, ki so ju sicer uporabljali za razne obveze in vnetja, ker celijo rane? Zakaj niso Jezusa umili, mu ostrigli las, ko so ga položili v grobnico, kot je bil običaj pri Judih, morda da ga ne bi poškodovali, odprli ran, da bi začel znova krvaveti?
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #9 - 22.05.2004 at 18:32:53
 
t wrote on 22.05.2004 at 13:09:15:
sicer zanimiva teorija zarote


exorcist wrote on 11.07.2003 at 19:29:49:
Torintski prt je srednjeveski ponaredek, znanstveniki so ugovili z radiokarbonskim datiranjem, koliko je star.


mislm da še ni blo primerka kateremu bi mogu tolkrat rečt

EDUCATE YOURSELF !!!

gape wrote on 04.08.2002 at 13:55:13:

Razkritje tisočletne prevare
Zarota proti Jezusu

Grozljivo in senzacionalno poročilo o potvorbi datiranja torinskega prta je čisti dinamit.

Izredna odkritja postavljajo pod vprašaj najtemeljnejše nauke krščanske Cerkve.

Odkritja - eno za drugim:
Jezus je preživel križanje
nemogoče je da bi vstal od mrtvih
prt je pravi in nikakor ni srednjeveška potvorba
radiokarbonska analiza je namerna potvorba
vatikanska velesila je skovala zaroto


Povzetek:
http://www.gape.org/gapes/prispevki/files/zarotaprotijezusu.htm

Povzetek povzetka:
http://www.gape.org/geeklog/public_html/article.php?story=20020804160326187

NajboljNaKratko:
JEZUS JE PREŽIVEL KRIŽANJE
kar za začetek pomeni da pri razsvetljenju telo (ego) ne umre nujno, lahko, ni pa nujno ...


skorde kopija od
http://www.gape.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=vera;action=display;num=104438325...
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Lahko pa da se tudi motim ...

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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #10 - 22.05.2004 at 19:27:48
 
gape wrote on 22.05.2004 at 18:32:53:
mislm da še ni blo primerka kateremu bi mogu tolkrat rečt

EDUCATE YOURSELF !!!


skorde kopija od
http://www.gape.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=vera;action=display;num=104438325...


To sem takrat mislil, da je ponaredek, ker sem gledal po tv eno študijo o Jezusu in njegovem mrtvaškem prtu, pa so eni znanstveniki dokazovali, da je pristen, druga pa, da je nepristen. Sedaj pa berem še eno knjigo, ki znanstveno vse lepo utemeljuje, da naj bi šlo za original. Recimo našli so celo pelodna zrna nekaterih cvetlic, ki so značilna samo za okoliš okrog Mrtvega morja....
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #11 - 22.05.2004 at 20:48:21
 
exorcist wrote on 22.05.2004 at 19:27:48:
To sem takrat mislil, da je ponaredek, ker sem gledal po tv eno študijo o Jezusu in njegovem mrtvaškem prtu, pa so eni znanstveniki dokazovali, da je pristen, druga pa, da je nepristen. Sedaj pa berem še eno knjigo, ki znanstveno vse lepo utemeljuje, da naj bi šlo za original. Recimo našli so celo pelodna zrna nekaterih cvetlic, ki so značilna samo za okoliš okrog Mrtvega morja....


aja

kera pa je to knjiga ...
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #12 - 26.05.2004 at 18:58:53
 
Hu, se več ne spomnim točnega naslova. Mislim,da Jezus v Indiji ali nekaj slicnega...

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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #13 - 09.06.2004 at 11:55:24
 
Za rajc k razmišljanju ali pa samo kot zanimivost:

Odlomek iz Thiaooubske prerokbe, ki zadeva (med drugim) torinski prt...


‘So, all his miracles were performed in order to prove that what he preached was true?’

‘Yes, because the Hebrews and the Romans would never have believed him if he hadn’t proven himself. There was a very good example of the strength of scepticism among people on Earth regarding the Shroud of Turin. Although millions believe in the coming of Jesus and practise, more or less, Christian religions, they were anxious to hear the results of research by experts, into whether or not the Shroud covered Christ after his ‘death’. You now know the answer to this. However, people seek proof and more proof, and still more proof, for doubt still exists in their minds. Buddha, an Earthling, who acquired his understanding through his own study, did not say, as your fellow men do: ‘I believe’, but rather, ‘I know’. Faith is never perfect but knowledge is.

‘When you return to Earth and tell your story, the first thing you will be asked is for evidence. If we were to give you, for example, a piece of metal which doesn’t exist on Earth, there would always be one, among the experts who analyse it, who would insist that you prove the metal was not created by a clever alchemist of your acquaintance - or some such thing.’

Will you give me something as proof?’

‘Michel, don’t disappoint me. You will have no material proof, for precisely the reasons I have just outlined - there would be no point.

‘Faith is nothing in comparison with knowledge. Buddha ‘knew’ and when you return to Earth, you too, will be able to say ‘I know’.

‘There is a well-known story of doubting Thomas who wanted to touch Christ’s wounds, for, seeing them with his own eyes did not convince him enough; and yet, when he touched them, he was still doubtful. He suspected some kind of magic trick. You know nothing of Nature on your planet, Michel, and, as soon as something occurs which is a little beyond your understanding, everyone claims it is magic. Levitation = magic; invisibility = magic - and yet we are only applying natural laws. Rather, you should say, levitation = knowledge and invisibility = knowledge.

‘So, Christ was sent to Earth to preach love and spirituality. He had to contend with people who were not highly evolved, speaking to them in parables. When he tipped over the merchants’ tables at the temple, angry for the first and only time, he was making a statement against money.

‘His mission was to impart a message of love and goodness - ‘love one another’ and also to enlighten the people in regard to the reincarnation of astral bodies and immortality. This was all distorted by priests in the time that followed and numerous disagreements led to the rise of the many sects which claim to follow the teachings of Christ.

‘Christians, throughout the centuries, have even killed in the name of God. The Inquisition was a good example, and the Spanish Catholics in Mexico behaved worse than the most savage tribes, all in the name of God and Christ.

‘Religions are a veritable curse on your planet - as I have said, and as I have proved. As for the new sects that are springing up and flourishing all over the world, they are based on control by brainwashing. It is terrifying to see young people, healthy in body and spirit, throw themselves at the feet of charlatans claiming to be Gurus and great masters, when the latter are masters of only two things - talking and collecting fabulous sums of money. This, of course, gives them power and enormous pride to see themselves dominating entire crowds of people who submit to them, body and soul. Not long ago, there was even one leader who asked his followers to commit suicide, and they obeyed. Since on Earth they love ‘proof’, there is an excellent one to give them: Universal Law forbids suicide - if this ‘master’ had been genuine, he would have known this. In demanding this sacrifice from them, he presented the greatest proof of his ignorance.

‘Sects and religions are a curse on Earth and when you see that the Pope sets aside millions of francs or dollars for his travel, when he could make do with much less, and use what money is available to help countries suffering from famine, you can not persuade me that it is the word of Christ which directs such actions.

‘There is a passage in your Bible that says: ‘It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Paradise.’

‘The Vatican is certainly the wealthiest church on your planet, and yet the priests have made vows of poverty. They have no fear of being damned, (yet they believe in damnation), because they say it is the Church which is rich, not them. This is really just a play on words since they make up the Church. It’s like the son of a multi-billionaire claiming that he is not rich - only his father is.

‘The Church has not distorted the passage in the Bible relating to wealth. They have used it to their advantage, for isn’t it preferable that the rich grow poorer at the profit of the Church?

...
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Re: Torinski prt - dokaz, da je Jezus preživel kri
Reply #14 - 09.06.2004 at 12:08:19
 
...

Tom Chalko o torinskem prtu in 'dokazih'...


1. Cloth of Turin?
Tom, my friend made the comment that the cloth of turin is only 600 years old acording to the latest tests? In the book Thao mentions this subject but only comments here is the answer to your question, but actually never states it clearly. How old is the Cloth of Turin? [Lothar].

The age of the "cloth of Turin" is no more relevant than the age of the cloth that you wash you floor with.

Clothes, crosses, donkeys and other accessories are completely irrelevant. Considering them is PURE IDOLATRY.

Try to imagine how could anyone prove the immortality of consciousness to people who don't even suspect it. He would need to die and then come back, right?

"The greatest danger concerns materialism..." as Thaoraexpressed it. Try to remember this. Use your Intellect. [Tom]

Hi Tom, Thanks for your answer about the cloth of Turin, I do understand what you saying. I was only trying to clarify this point in the book for myself and others. I thought because Thao mentions it, it had to be relevant as much as thethe box holding Ouriki`s lock of hair in a tomb in Shingo (Herai) Japan. [Lothar].

The main evidence in Herai is totally non material. It is a product of Intellect - a song SO cleverly written that it explains and proves in 3 lines MORE than many books.

Have you seen The Herai page ?

Thao mentioned Cloth of Turin specifically to demonstrate that providing material evidence doesn't make the slightest sense.

All evidence is always in the Intellect. If Intellect cannot comprehend the possibility - no proof is possible. Please search this forum for "proof" for more details. [Tom]

2. Seeking proof?
Dear Tom and company,I've recently read both `The Freedom of Choice` and `Thiaooba Prophecy` and have a question.

In your book `The Freedom of Choice` you tell the reader that you should seek proof in everything to prevent yourself being mislead. BUT...in `Thiaooba Prophecy` by Michel Desmarquet, Michel is critisised for seeking proof.

Whats the deal? Is there a golden rule to follow? Or are we supposed take each situation as it comes and make up our own mind on what is the most appropiate course of action? [David].

The "proof" is always in the mind. It is never anything material. Let me give you an example.

Suppose that you find some unusual rock or mineral. Is it a proof? OF WHAT???

Suppose that you find an inhabitable planet called Earth with abundance of lifeforms on which there are a few gigantic pyramids. Is it a proof? Of WHAT???

Some "scientists" will say that it is all a proof of "uncertainty" in the Universe and that everything exists just because it CAN. Others will not notice lifeforms and will choose to believe that pyramids are simply cementary monuments constructed by slaves. Very few people will notice and appreciate that stones from which the Great Pyramid is constructed are quite heavy (20 to 50 tons), that they are fitted to each other in 3D with phenomenal air-tight precision, and there are no rope or other ANY OTHER handling marks on their edges despite the fact that the stone material is very delicate and soft.

From the above it is obvious that concusions and "proofs" are determined and limited by Intellect who makes them. Do you remember a story of a dog?

My view is that, in essence, there is no need to prove anything to anyone, except yourself. Just try to make sense of everything that you become aware of. Examining and/or adopting opinions of other people may be useful or not - it is YOUR CHOICE.

Who will you become in the Universe depends exclusively on what you manage to understand yourself and on what choices you make on the basis of your understanding. [Tom]

3. The proof?
Hello Tom and everybody. I have a question based on an observation that I have been making for many years, but not until now am I starting to think about it.

I have noticed that there are people who say that they see the possibility that the Universe might be as The Book claims it to be. They say that it might be like that, but they are very sceptical.

The problem is, they don`t do anything to find out if it`s really true. And since they can find anywhere to start (you can`t touch or see truth), they drop the subject, hoping that eventually someone will give them some `hard` evidence.

If a person can see a possibility, I want to help them, but after many discussions I`m still not sure about a good way. Do you have any ideas what to do? [Andreas].

A wise man @2000 years ago expressed his advice what to do in a very simple way: "WHOEVER seeks shall find...".

The word "whoever" is very important, because it implies that every INDIVIDUAL should seek in order to find. He did not say "it is exactly as I say" or "do as I say" or "wait for someone to tell you" or "wait until someone does something"...

A "proof" can ONLY arise in an INDIVIDUAL'S OWN MIND. No one can understand anything FOR someone else, much like no one can learn to speak or walk for someone else.

If intellect is unwilling or unable to seek - no possibility of any proof exists for such an individual.

I have already written elsewhere that communicating ideas to those who are unwilling and/or unable to understand them is one of the most difficult things in the Universe. If it was easy, The Great Intellect would have addressed the issue in its Design of the Universe to begin with...

The only thing that we can actually do is to MANIFEST ourselves, our own Intellect and our own ideas in order to give others a CHOICE to understand them. Our choice is choosing ideas and ways of presenting them.

Writing The Freedom of Choice book this article and conducting this Forum are examples of my personal attempts in such a communication. I explain how I had sought and what I have found. The main purpose of my communication is to tease people and try to provoke them to THINK for themselves. I specifically ask readers to "seek and find" for themselves. It seems that there is no other way. Evolution of Intellect is strictly an individual effort.

There are, however, people who cannot even begin to comprehend the concept of "thinking individually for themselves" and its consequences. Such people accuse me of leading a "sect" of "believers" or "blind followers", not even noticing that promoting individual thinking is the concept that is precisely the opposite - it emphasizes INDIVIDUALITY and The Freedom of Choice.

In contrast, the essence of a "sect" is a set of doctrines, belief systems, rules, authorities, hierarchy, procedures, rituals etc.. that restrict the individual Freedom of Thought (with consent of individual members) so that a sect leaders can control the flock. [Tom]

Vir: Thiaoouba Prophecy in Freedom of Choice Reader Forum

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