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titud
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #60 - 07.11.2003 at 12:35:12
 
Quote:
najbrz res ni potrebe po kakrsnikoli spremembi v misljenju in delovanju, dokler si zadovoljen in izpolnjen s tistim kar imas.

avtenticne in pravilno izvajane "Hare Krishna tehnike" (delovanje), so v skladu s tvojo vecno naravo/identiteto, in ni to nic nenaravnega. vse ostale tehnike/delovanja, ki izhajajo iz misidentifikacije sebe (zmotnega poistovecanja) z materijo (grobo in fino/subtilno) so nenaravne in v koncni fazi prinasajo le trpljenje.



Se po svoje strinjam. Nobeno prakticiranje ti ne bo prinesl večjega zadovoljstva od tega kot ga premoreš. Če pa ga ne premoreš, pol se v bistvu lahko  lotiš katerekoli tehnike in vsaka je dobra, če ti le  prinese več zadovoljstva. Lestvica je od tle naprej navzgor čist odprta  do popolnega, ki pa spet točn tako in  čist nč večje, kot ga pač  lahko premoreš. To je zame edino merilo zadovljstva, drugih absulitnih meril jest ne prizanvam.        
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #61 - 07.11.2003 at 12:45:25
 
mind wrote on 07.11.2003 at 11:22:22:
titud, torej je Jezus špekuliral ko je govoril, da "smo vsi otroci živega Očeta " ?


eksluzivisti so za mene znanstveniki in biologi, ki razlagajo "svet" z svojimi nepopolnimi in omejenimi inštrumenti in potem to svojo resnico vsiljujejo na zelo eleganten način preko družbe,kulture in šole v naš um od samega rojstva napej

ekskluzivist si potemtakem pomoje tudi ti, ki ne priznavaš drugačne resnice od tvoje (sam svoj izvor) in ki si jo našpekuliral s pomočjo svojih nepopolnih instrumentov zaznave oz. prevzel od drugih nepopolnih "znanstevnikov", le da je tvoja resnica pač nekoliko "trpeča" in ne obljublja večnega zadovoljstva in miru


Zihr se sam zase eklsuziven, ampak jest tud od vsakega drugega  pričakujem, da bo zase enak ekskluziven. To nas nč ne ovira al pa odvezuje odtega, da bi med sabo solidaliziral v trpljenju, ki si ga vsak zadaja s  takim ekslkuzivizmom. Jest sem zmerom za take vrste razredno solidarnost. Je  blo že ničkolk poskusov, da bi se breme tega privat  eklustivizma prenesl na kakšno  ekluzivno skupnost, mapak za take vrste odrešenja me je pač težko navdušit.      
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #62 - 07.11.2003 at 13:14:56
 
titud:
Quote:
Jest sem zmerom za take vrste razredno solidarnost.



jaz iščem znanje, ne ekskluzivnosti

od mene ne moreš pričakovat ekskluzivnosti, ker jemljem znanje od drugih ekskluzivistov oz. avtoritet in preverjam in poskušam udejanjit na sebi to njihovo ekskluzivnost

ampak pri tem ne gre za zatekanje ali odrekanje iz lastnega polja špekulacije v špekulativna polja ekskluzivistov, ker te avtoritete katerim sledim svoje znanje ne črpajo oz. pridobivajo na podlagi lastne ekskluzivnosti ampak naravne vseobsegajoče avtoritete

če me ti ekskluzivisti zavajajo in mi vsiljujejo lastno špekulativno ekskluzivnost pa bo tako ali tako pokazal čas




LP


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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #63 - 08.11.2003 at 11:28:05
 
mind wrote on 07.11.2003 at 13:14:56:
titud:


jaz iščem znanje, ne ekskluzivnosti

od mene ne moreš pričakovat ekskluzivnosti, ker jemljem znanje od drugih ekskluzivistov oz. avtoritet in preverjam in poskušam udejanjit na sebi to njihovo ekskluzivnost

ampak pri tem ne gre za zatekanje ali odrekanje iz lastnega polja špekulacije v špekulativna polja ekskluzivistov, ker te avtoritete katerim sledim svoje znanje ne črpajo oz. pridobivajo na podlagi lastne ekskluzivnosti ampak naravne vseobsegajoče avtoritete

če me ti ekskluzivisti zavajajo in mi vsiljujejo lastno špekulativno ekskluzivnost pa bo tako ali tako pokazal čas



Noben te ne zavaja, vsak ma zase zihr prav. Nima pa noben prav zate. Lahko te učijo, kako teb  prit do lastnega prav, ampak pri tem nikol be morejo trdit, da je zate karkoli narobe. Tega ne more za drugega noben nardit, vsak mora zase špeulirat pa za svoje špekuacije rizik nosit.      
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #64 - 09.11.2003 at 12:02:03
 
titud wrote on 08.11.2003 at 11:28:05:
Noben te ne zavaja, vsak ma zase zihr prav. Nima pa noben prav zate. Lahko te učijo, kako teb  prit do lastnega prav, ampak pri tem nikol be morejo trdit, da je zate karkoli narobe. Tega ne more za drugega noben nardit, vsak mora zase špeulirat pa za svoje špekuacije rizik nosit.      

kaj pa ce obstaja univerzalno prav in univerzalno narobe za vsa ziva bitja? Vede in realizirani svetniki pravijo da ja, hkrati pa priznavajo, da se detajli znotraj tega razlikujejo za vsakega posameznika.

univerzalno prav za vsa ziva bitja (nas), ki so delcek ene izmed potenc/energij Boga, ki je izvor in "upravljalec/gospodar" vseh svojih energij je, da Mu vecno iz ljubezni sluzijo. univerzalno narobe pa je, da so Mu nenaklonjeni (za kar imajo pravico, ki jim je tudi dana od Boga). Bolj ko smo Bogu naklonjeni in Mu sluzimo, bolj smo lahko zadovoljni in mirni hkrati. v nasprotnem primeru pa smo stalno v trpljenju in vznemirjenju.

Goura Hari bol.
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #65 - 10.11.2003 at 08:19:09
 
Quote:
kaj pa ce obstaja univerzalno prav in univerzalno narobe za vsa ziva bitja? Vede in realizirani svetniki pravijo da ja, hkrati pa priznavajo, da se detajli znotraj tega razlikujejo za vsakega posameznika.


V čem je po moje jeba takih sklicevalnja na unevrzalni prav/narobe v svetih spisih? Po moje v tem, da so sveti spisi sami že posledice dvoma v kategorične religozne  resnice, ki  so bile do pojava pisne kulture abosultno veljavne v določeni skupnsti. Pojav  pisne kulture je ustno in obredno vzdrževanje  skupne resnice, ki je hkrati tudi individualna resnica, že s svojim pojavom postavu pod vprašaj. Že s s tem, da so bile resnice zapisane, so bile podane vse možnosti  za induvidualno in s  tem 'napačno' tolmačanje, zato so sveti spisi v bistvu spisek groženj in prispodob, kaj se lahko posmezniku zgodi, če jih bo interpretiral 'po svoje' in s tem 'napačno'. Obsojenost na trpljenje, življenje v prevari  in grožnja  pogubljenjem so  tako temljna vsebina svetih spisov, ki jim je tako vsebino narekovalo dejstvo, da so pisni, torej spisi. Tko ni čudno, da so spisi nastali ob velikih anemičnih/katastrofalnih  dogodkih za določenos skupnost, tko se vedah bog razodeva v veliki bitki, sveto pismo pa je itak polno eksodusov in vseh možnih ogrožanj judovske skupnosti, ki so svoj prvi pisni akt tako dobili v obliki desetih zapovedi sredi največje  moralne krize. Vedske pesnitve so tako kot knjige stare zaveze v bistvu že začetek konca absolutnih  verskih resnic, so posledice posamično in koletivnega izraženega dvoma v te resnice  in ne vir absolutniih/univerzalnih resnic, kot si  to mi zdaj napačno predstavljamo. Dokler so res delovale, dolkler so bile res integralni vskega posmeznika v s tem tud skupnosti, jih sploh ni  blo treba zapisat. Sveti spisi so v bistvu nekrolog, en nostalgičen spomin  nad nečim, kar je blo včasih živo delujoče in vseprežemajoče. Z zapisnamim je do tega  kljub pesniški ali epski/literani obliki in simbolni veljavi vzpostavljena  ena racionalna distanca, ki jo vsem pravorenim interpretom in čuvajem absoltnih resnic  navkljub kot take ni mogoče zabrisat.

V tem smislu so sveti spisi neke vrste kolektivna špekulacije  s čist podobno veljavo kot vsaka naša osebna špekulacija, pa naj se sklicuje nanje al pa na karkoli drugega.
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aryan
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #66 - 10.11.2003 at 08:44:21
 
...naj praksa pokaze svoje...

Goura Hari bol.
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #67 - 10.11.2003 at 09:07:50
 
Quote:
...naj praksa pokaze svoje...


Tle smo omejen na pisno komunikacijo. Ne moreva delit praktične izkušnje, kot bi jo lahko na podlagi petja/plesa in drug praktičnih oblik čaščenja, katere zapovedujeujejo sveti spisi in njihovi pooblaščenci. Tle sva oba v polju špekulacije in ti si izbral to polje, ne jest. Ostan znotraj njega, da bo  komunikacija možna, saj je  konc koncev špekulacija stvar izbire, ki bi jo praksa morala  tud pokrivat, če je naj bo pravica do napake tud legitimna osebna  izbira in kot taka zapisana v svetih spisih. Sem že  zgoraj napisal, da je po  moje  izvor napačne prakse predvsem v tem, da so sveti spisi spisi in ne npr. ustno izročilo, ki avtoriteto neposredno povezuje z glasom izgovorjenega. Zato so interpreti vedno avtoritativnejši od spisov, na katere se v svoji avtoriteti sklicujejo.  Zato je v končni fazi  le notranji glas  vsakmu posamezniku lahko  najvišja avtoriteta.      
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aryan
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #68 - 10.11.2003 at 09:37:43
 
titud wrote on 10.11.2003 at 09:07:50:
Sem že  zgoraj napisal, da je po  moje  izvor napačne prakse predvsem v tem, da so sveti spisi spisi in ne npr. ustno izročilo, ki avtoriteto neposredno povezuje z glasom izgovorjenega.

sveti spisi in verodostojna avtoriteta (realizirana oseba) sta v popolnem soglasju en z drugim.

Quote:
Zato so interpreti vedno avtoritativnejši od spisov, na katere se v svoji avtoriteti sklicujejo.

jaz ne bi reku da so avtoritativnejsi, in tudi oni tega nikol tega ne trdijo. je pa res, da direktni govor realizirane osebe naredi velik vecji vtis na poslusalca in s tem tudi vzbudi vero v svete spise, njihov teoretski koncept, pripadajoco prakso in koncni cilj/rezultat te prakse, ki se ga lahko do neke mere tud obcuti in zazna v njegovi druzbi. ponavadi je to dovolj za zaupanje, ki vodi kasneje v osebno prakticiranje.

Quote:
Zato je v končni fazi le notranji glas  vsakmu posamezniku lahko  najvišja avtoriteta.

vec glasov lahko prihaja iz "notranjosti", ampak ne vodijo nas vsi k nasemu vecnemu dobrobitu.

Goura Hari bol.
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« Last Edit: 10.11.2003 at 11:00:22 by aryan »  
 
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #69 - 10.11.2003 at 11:39:43
 
Quote:
sveti spisi in verodostojna avtoriteta (realizirana oseba) sta v popolnem soglasju en z drugim.


Ker sveti spisi so spisi  ravno zato, ker   predredpostvljajo mojo nerelizironst, zmotno identifikacijo, izvirni greh in kar je še tega. Pred obstojem svetih spisov se kaj takega sploh ni moglo prepostvlajt, saj bil  moj notranji glas enak božjemu brez sence dvoma. Sveti spisi so posledica dejstva, da  se  je moj notranji glas razšel z božjim,  so posledica shizofrene razceplejnosti v človeku,  so neke vrste 'recept', kako  to shizofrenijo odpravit.  Odpravit na na način, da notranji gals utišaš in prisluhneš božjemu, ki se kaže skoz  takšenga al drugačnega pooblaščenega preroka, mesijo, guruja in kar je tega. Samorealizacija po  svetih spisih je možna tako samo skoz konkreten glas, npr.  hare krišna,  katerga  se ponotranji oz.   sinhronizirna z glasom v tebi. To nardi konc shizofreni  razcepljenosti glasov v tebi, edino  na ta način spet lahko odrešijo  sveti spisi in te 'realizirajo'.

Jasno da edino oni, saj  so ti tovrstno shizofrenijo pozročl. Zame so religije svojo poslanstvo opravle s pojavom pisne kulture, vse od prvih spisov naprej je samo še agonija oz.  praspomin na čase, ko še ni blo dvojnosti  božjega in obsebnega glasu. Vse prave enosti se od tle vzpostvljajo samo še na induvidulnem mističnem nivoju, ki  pa  vsako zase  svete spise po svoje  negira, ne pa potrjuje. Zato so bli v pisni zgodovini pravi mistiki bodisi heretiki bodisi reformatorji  bodisi puščavniki bodisi revolucionarji bodisi kriminalci bodosi  norci....      
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #70 - 10.11.2003 at 11:54:39
 
avtenticni sveti spisi in govor realiziranih svetnikov so pasivni in aktivni medij skozi katerega Bog govori nam, "vznemirjenim". le ce lahko iskreno prisluhnemo, lahko spoznamo njihovo vrednost.

Goura Hari bol.
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #71 - 11.11.2003 at 09:13:35
 
How to Find Truth

Excerpts from the Holy Biography of His Divine Grace Nityalila-pravista Om Visnupada Paramahamsa 108 Sri Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Gosvami Maharaj

Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Gosvami Maharaja is the Spiritual Preceptor of His Divine Grace Sri Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja, who related these excerpts originally in Bengali. A full English edition of this biography will be available from GOKUL in the near future.

In this text, the title "Srila Gurudeva" refers to Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Gosvami Maharaja.

Photo: Nityalila-pravista Om Visnupada Paramahamsa 108 Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, founder of Sri Gaudiya Math. It was upon His request that His disciple Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Gosvami went to speak with Dr. Ramana.


Srila Gurudeva had a divine ability to get to the root of a question and to respond immediately with correctness born of expertise. He had a remarkable capacity for deftly handling persons fond of modern arguments, utilizing the very logic and examples of those with whom He was debating. Thus, whoever came near Him could not escape the influence of His charismatic personality. Those who have heard Him speak may recall the examples He cited while dwelling on Harikatha (topics about the Divine Lord). The following incident is referred to for the sake of those who have not had the good fortune to have been personally present.

In 1930, at the Sri Gaudiya Math at Bag Bazaar, the annual month-long celebration of Sri Krishna Janmastami (appearance day of Lord Krishna) was being held. On each day, a different renowned personality would preside over the gathering. Some students of the famous scientist (dobil je nobelovo nagrado tud) Dr. C.V. Ramana would attend these meetings to listen to the learned Svamijis. On one occasion, they wished to know from Srila Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati) why such an internationally famous figure such as Dr. Ramana had not been invited to preside at this function. Srila Prabhupada replied that He had no objection whatsoever and cordially decided to extend an invitation to the great scientist. Srila Prabhupada asked our Gurudeva to go and offer the invitation personally. Srila Gurudeva went to Dr. Ramana's house, but he was not at home. His wife employed a bearer to take Srila Gurudeva to the laboratory on Circular Road, where Srila Gurudeva and Dr. Ramana met on the first floor. Dr. Ramana was engaged in research in the corner of a large room. Since Dr. Ramana was not conversant in either Bengali or Hindi, the dialogue took place in English. Upon being asked by Dr. Ramana, Srila Gurudeva explained the reason for His coming. Having heard the reason, the scientist said, "I do not honor your 'kesta-bistu.' I will not give credence to anything that cannot be perceived by the senses and is fanciful by nature. Time is of great value to me. I am, however, willing to go to any conference which deals with science or education."

Srila Gurudeva: "Your students regularly attend our programs at Bag Bazaar Gaudiya Math. It is they who want you to preside over a session. Srila Prabhupada has instructed me to invite you. Please agree to our request."

Dr. Ramana: "Can you show me your God? If you can, then I will go."

Srila Gurudeva: "I cannot see anything beyond that wall, but would it be truthful to say that there is nothing beyond it?" The room in which they spoke had no windows. There were only walls, behind one of which stretched North Calcutta.

Dr. Ramana: "You, perhaps, cannot see. But I will be able to see with the help of an instrument."

Srila Gurudeva: "There is a limit to the power of any instrument. You may be able to see as far as that power can take you, but does this mean that there is nothing beyond the limitations of the instrument?"

Dr. Ramana: "Let it be. I will not give my time. I will not dwell on anything that is not within the purview of my bodily sense experience. I ask you again, can you show me God? If you can, only then will I spare my time."

Srila Gurudeva: "You have arrived at what you consider to be a scientific truth. What will be your response if your students demand that you demonstrate proof of your conclusions as a condition for accepting you as their teacher?"

Dr. Ramana: (emphatically) "I shall convince them of the truth!"

Srila Gurudeva: "First, convince them of the truth, and then teach them?"

Dr. Ramana: "No, they will have to follow the same path of inquiry that I have followed. First, they will be required to study this subject in their Bachelor's program, and later in their Master's program. They must also work under me for five years. Then they will have realized the correct conclusion."

Srila Gurudeva: "Do not the great saints and sages of Bharata (old India) say the same things that you have said? Follow the path that they have followed to realize Atma-Paramatma-Bhagavan (soul, Supersoul, God) and find out for yourself whether or not God can be realized. You cannot impart your realizations to your students at the very beginning. They must follow a specific course. Thus, follow the path meant for God realization and experience the results for yourself. Try first and then negate it if you must, but is it wise to negate something from the very onset without even trying it?"

Dr. Ramana did not immediately reply.

After some time he said: "I do not know anything about Krishna. What will I say at such a gathering? Would it not be better to invite someone who has knowledge of the subject?"
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #72 - 12.11.2003 at 14:34:27
 
en odlomek iz "Prayers by the Personified Vedas" (http://www.krsnabook.com/ch87.html) namenjen predvsem predstavnikom/zagovornikom neosebne Absolutne resnice, v lahko razumljivi angleščini

 
King Pariksit inquired from Sukadeva Gosvami about a very important topic in understanding transcendental subject matter. His question was, "Since Vedic knowledge generally deals with the subject matter of the three qualities of the material world, how then can it approach the subject matter of transcendence, which is beyond the approach of the three material modes? Since the mind is material and the vibration of words is a material sound, how can the Vedic knowledge, expressing by material sound the thoughts of the material mind, approach transcendence? Description of a subject matter necessitates describing its source of emanation, its qualities and its activities. Such description can be possible only by thinking with the material mind and by vibrating material words. Although Brahman, or the Absolute Truth, has no material qualities, but our power of speaking does not go beyond the material qualities. How then can Brahman, the Absolute Truth, be described by your words? I do not see how it is possible to understand transcendence from such expressions of material sound."

The purpose of King Pariksit's inquiring was to ascertain from Sukadeva Gosvami whether the Vedas ultimately describe the Absolute Truth as impersonal or as personal. Understanding of the Absolute Truth progresses in three features--impersonal Brahman, Paramatma localized in everyone's heart and, at last, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna.

The Vedas deal with three departments of activities. One is called karma-kanda, or activities under Vedic injunction which gradually purify one to understand his real position; the next is jnana-kanda, the process of understanding the Absolute Truth by speculative methods; and the third is upasana-kanda, or worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and sometimes of the demigods also. The worship of the demigods recommended in the Vedas is ordered with the understanding of the demigods' relationship to the Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has many parts and parcels; some are called svamsas, or His personal expansions, and some are called vibhinnamsas, the living entities. All such expansions, both svamsas and vibhinnamsas, are emanations from the original Personality of Godhead. Svamsa expansions are called visnu-tattva, whereas the vibhinnamsa expansions are called jiva-tattva. The different demigods are jiva-tattva. The conditioned souls are generally put into the activities of the material world for sense gratification; therefore, as stated in the Bhagavad-gita, to regulate those who are very much addicted to different kinds of sense gratification the worship of demigods is sometimes recommended. For example, for persons who are very much addicted to meat-eating, the Vedic injunction recommends that after worshiping the form of the goddess Kali and sacrificing a goat (not any other animal) under karma-kanda regulation, the worshipers may be allowed to eat meat. The idea is not to encourage one to eat meat, but to allow one who is persistent to eat meat under certain restricted conditions. Therefore, worship of the demigods is not worship of the Absolute Truth, but by worshiping the demigods one gradually comes to accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead in an indirect way. This indirect acceptance is described in the Bhagavad-gita as avidhi. Avidhi means not bona fide. Since demigod worship is not bona fide, the impersonalists stress concentration on the impersonal feature of the Absolute Truth. King Pariksit's question was, which is the ultimate target of Vedic knowledge--this concentration on the impersonal feature of the Absolute Truth or concentration on the personal feature? After all, both the impersonal and the personal features of the Supreme Lord are beyond our material conception. The impersonal feature of the Absolute, the Brahman effulgence, is but the rays of the personal body of Krsna. These rays of the personal body of Krsna are cast all over the creation of the Lord, and the portion of the effulgence which is covered by the material cloud is called the created cosmos of the three material qualities--sattva, rajas and tamas. How can persons who are within this clouded portion called the material world conceive of the Absolute Truth by the speculative method?

In answering King Pariksit's question, Sukadeva Gosvami replied that the Supreme Personality of Godhead has created the mind, senses and living force for the purpose of sense gratification in transmigration from one kind of body to another, as well as for the purpose of allowing liberation from the material conditions. In other words, the senses, mind and living force can be utilized for sense gratification and transmigration from one body to another or for the matter of liberation. The Vedic injunctions are there just to give the conditioned souls the chance for sense gratification under regulative principles, and thereby also give them the chance for promotion to the higher conditions of life; ultimately, if the consciousness is purified, one comes to his original position and goes back home, back to Godhead.

The living force is intelligent. One therefore has to utilize his intelligence over the mind and the senses. When the mind and senses are purified by the proper use of intelligence, then the conditioned soul is liberated; otherwise, if the intelligence is not properly utilized in controlling the senses and mind, the conditioned soul continues to transmigrate from one kind of body to another simply for sense gratification. Another point clearly stated in the answer of Sukadeva Gosvami is that the Lord created the mind, senses and intelligence of the individual living force. It is not stated that the living entities themselves were ever created. Just as the shining particles of the sun's rays are always existing along with the sun, the living entities exist eternally as parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The conditioned souls, although eternally existing as part of the Supreme Lord, are sometimes put within the cloud of the material concept of life, in the darkness of ignorance. The whole Vedic process is to alleviate that darkened condition. Ultimately, when the senses and mind of the conditioned being become fully purified, he then comes to the original position, called Krsna consciousness, and that is liberation.

In the Vedanta-sutra, the first sutra, or code, questions about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma-jijnasa: What is the nature of the Absolute Truth? The next sutra answers that the nature of the Absolute Truth is that He is the origin of everything. Whatever we experience, even in this material condition of life, is but an emanation from Him. The Absolute Truth created the mind and senses and intelligence. This means that the Absolute Truth is not without mind, intelligence and senses. In other words, He is not impersonal. The very word "created" means that He has transcendental intelligence. For example, when a father begets a child, the child has senses because the father also has senses. The child is born with hands and legs because the father also has hands and legs. Sometimes it is said, therefore, that man is made after the image of God. The Absolute Truth is therefore the Supreme Personality, with transcendental mind, senses and intelligence. When one's mind, intelligence and senses are purified of material contamination, one can understand the original feature of the Absolute Truth as a person.

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Hari bol
 
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #73 - 22.12.2003 at 06:54:45
 
Patram puspam phalam toyam.
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Re: Hare Krishna
Reply #74 - 22.12.2003 at 06:56:56
 
Yujyate 'nena durghatesu karyesu.
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