titud wrote on 20.03.2003 at 15:20:37:

Saj nikjer ne pravim, da se je treba francoza delat. Odgovornost lahko prevzamemo le za nekaj, kar  poznamo in kolikor toliko obvladujemo. Mislim, da je dobro, da se družbeno emergiranih dejstev čimbolj zavedamo in spoznamo zakonitosti, ki jih vodijo, ker le tako se bomo lahko šli še kaj več, kot tisti vrač, ki pleše za dež, če ga ni, je pač božja volja taka, da zaradi suše vse pocrka. Ravno boljše poznavanje omogoča tudi boljše ukrepanje in ne več zgolj čakanje na usodo, pa kakršna koli že bo.

titud wrote on 20.03.2003 at 15:55:45:

Tudi ta današnja protivojna poza francozov se da racionalno razložiti
Poglej si samo podatke o tem, kdo zdaj načrpa največ nafte v Iraškem bazenu in kdo bo to po prerazporeditvi  koncesij po vojaškem posegu, pa bo takoj mnogo bolj jasno.

(Namig: zdaj Francija, Rusija, Kitajska.  potem ZDA, VB, ostali)

Quote:


Saj to, da racionalno da razložit francoski interes, ni nujno, da tako  racionalno zapopadeno dejstvo  v seb ne implicira tud v bistvu iracionalnega naboja, ki se kaže v tem, da se njen veto sklada z razpoloženjem tiste svetovne javnosti, ki ameriške logiko sile ne sprejema kot objektivno dejstvo ampak le kot izraz subjektivne volje naftnega kartela. Hočem rečt, da ne moreš nevtralizirat vrednosti  francoskega veta  s tem, da mu pripišeš racionalno podlago v njihovih lastnih naftnih interesih, ki so vrednostno enaki ameriškim, le da so z njiimi v konkurenčnem konflktu. Tle se pol spet znajdemo na polju ene totalne objektivne situcije, v katero subjektivno ni možno posegat.

Se mal bojim, da sem  s tem, ko sem vlogo mirovnikov primerjal z vlogo šamanov, nehote pokazal na njihovo nemoč. Nemoč pa se izkazjuje le iz nega strogo racionalističnega stališča, po katerem ni  mogoče objektivno, to je vzročno-posledično dokazat vpliva njihove dejavnosti (ritualov) na t.i. objektivno situacijo. Po drugi strani prav šamani/mirovniki s svojim 'čudaškim' početjem (pustimo ob strani, da čudaštvo šamanov izhaja iz posebnih  stanj zavesti, ki so potrebne za vzpostvitev koredpondence s kaotičnim nezavednim, ki je le odraz kotičnosti  zunanjega sveta oz.  njegovega 'duha'), opozarjajo na to, da je struktura sveta v bistvu psihična/duhovna in ker je  taka tud naša subjektivna stuktura, sta ti dve  dve zadevi praktično eno in isto sta in  zato zmerom v eni dinamčni interakciji, v kateri ni hierhije. Hirearhija je  le posledica dualnosti, ki jo je ustavru razum, da bi se v svetu fizičnega imel na kaj opret pri svojem procesiranju.  Razumsko skratka iz svoje dejavnosti  hoče izgnat t.i.  psihični dejavnik (duha), zato se mu  konc koncev tud vojna, še posebej utemeljena na racionalistični/tehnološko/ekonomski logiki lahko utemljuje kot nekaj objektivnega in zato sprejemljivega. Skratka, šamani so sposobni v vsaki racionalni/objektivni situciji sprevidet tisti iracionalni naboj, zarad katerga je objektivno realnost možno v vsakem trentku presežt.

Zato tud pravim, da mirovno gibanje v seb mora imet ta šamanski presežek ali pa religiozno transdenco, s katerim je mogoče dosečt nemogoče kljub zaroti objektivnih okoliščin kot jih dojema sicer  razumen človek.                    

Subject: Dr. Muller on Peace & War & the UN

Dr. Robert Muller, former assistant secretary general of the United
Nations, now Chancellor emeritus of the University of Peace in Costa
Rica was one of the people who witnessed the founding of the U.N. and has worked
in support of or inside the U.N. ever since. Recently he was in San
Francisco to be honored for his service to the world through the U.N.
and through his writings and teachings for peace.

At age eighty, Dr. Muller surprised, even stunned, many in the audience that day with his most positive
assessment of where the world stands now regarding war and peace.
I was there at the gathering and I myself was stunned by his remarks.
What he said turned my head around and offered me a new way to see what
is going on in the world. My synopsis of his remarks is below:

"I'm so honored to be here," he said. "I'm so honored to be alive at
such a miraculous time in history. I'm so moved by what's going on in
our world today."

(I was shocked. I thought -- Where has he been? What has he been
reading? Has he seen the newspapers? Is he senile? Has he lost it?
What is he talking about?)

Dr. Muller proceeded to say, "Never before in the history of the world
has there been a global, visible, public, viable, open dialogue and
conversation about the very legitimacy of war."
The whole world is in now having this critical and historic
dialogue--listening to all kinds of points of view and positions about
going to war or not going to war. In a huge global public conversation
the world is asking -- "Is war legitimate? Is it illegitimate? Is there
enough evidence to warrant an attack? Is there not enough evidence to warrant
an attack?

What will be the consequences? The costs? What will happen after a war?
How will this set off other conflicts? What might be peaceful alternatives?

What kind of negotiations are we not thinking of? What are the real
intentions for declaring war?"

All of this, he noted, is taking place in the context of the United
Nations Security Council, the body that was established in 1949 for
exactly this purpose. He pointed out that it has taken us more than fifty
years to realize that function, the real function of the U.N. And at
this moment in history--the United Nations is at the center of the stage. It is the
place where these conversations are happening, and it has become in these
last months and weeks, the most powerful governing body on earth, the most
powerful container for the world's effort to wage peace rather than
war.

Dr. Muller was almost in tears in recognition of the fulfillment of
this dream.
"We are not at war," he kept saying. We, the world community, are
WAGING peace. It is difficult, hard work. It is constant and we must
not let up. It is working and it is an historic milestone of immense proportions.
It has never happened before -- never in human history -- and it is
happening now, every day, every hour, waging peace through a global conversation.
He pointed out that the conversation questioning the validity of going to
war has gone on for hours, days, weeks, months and now more than a year, and it
may go on and on.
"We're in peacetime," he kept saying. "Yes, troops are being moved.
Yes, warheads are being lined up. Yes, the aggressor is angry and
upset and spending a billion dollars a day preparing to attack. But
not one shot has been fired. Not one life has been lost. There is no
war. It's all a conversation."

It is tense, it is tough, it is challenging, AND we are in the most
significant and potent global conversation and public dialogue in the
history of the world. This has not happened before on this scale ever
before--not before WWI or WWII, not before Vietnam or Korea, this is
new and it is a stunning new era of Global listening, speaking, and
responsibility.

In the process, he pointed out, new alliances are being formed. Russia
and China on the same side of an issue is an unprecedented outcome.
France and Germany working together to wake up the world to a new way
of seeing the situation. The largest peace demonstrations in the
history of the world are taking place--and we are not at war!

Most peace demonstrations in recent history took place when a war was
already waging, sometimes for years, as in the case of Vietnam.

"So this," he said, "is a miracle. This is what "waging peace " looks
like."

No matter what happens, history will record that this is a new era,
And that the 21st century has been initiated with the world in a global
dialogue looking deeply, profoundly and responsibly as a global
community at the legitimacy of the actions of a nation that is
desperate to go to war.

Through these global peace-waging efforts, the leaders of that nation
are being engaged in further dialogue, forcing them to rethink, and
allowing all nations to participate in the serious and horrific
decision to go to war or not.

Dr. Muller also made reference to a recent New York Times article that
pointed out that up until now there has been just one superpower--the
United States, and that that has created a kind of blindness in the vision of
the U.S. But now, Dr. Muller asserts, there are two superpowers: the
United States and the merging, surging voice of the people of the world.

All around the world, people are waging peace. To Robert Muller, one
Of the great advocates of the United Nations, it is nothing short of a
Miracle and it is working.

Če se ne motim je to ob 17.00 po našem času