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http://www.gape.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Svetovalnica >> Jezus in Satan http://www.gape.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1060775977 Message started by exorcist on 13.08.2003 at 13:59:37

Title: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 13.08.2003 at 13:59:37

Pogostokrat sem zasledil na vasem forumu, da ne verjamete v zle demone - Satana, ker mi ustvarimo sami sebi ali drugim pekel z mislimi, slabimi dejanji, negativizmom, etc.... OK, se bi strinjal, ker je v tem veliko resnice, ampak zakaj recimo Jezus izganja zle duhove iz ljudi, ki so bili obsedeni, ti so ga celo rotili naj jih poslje v trop svinj, ki so se nato utopile. Pravzaprav je dosti govora o Satanu v Sv. pismu. Ce ne bi eksistirali jih ne bi izganjal? Torej, kako pa si tole razlagate, namrec nekatere vase trditve se mi zdijo protislovne?
;)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 17.08.2003 at 16:55:59

Halo je kdo tu bolj biblijsko podkovan, ker ze dalj casa cakam na odgovor, pa ga od nikjer ni. Torej, kako in na cem temelji vas argument, da zla v personalizirani obliki ni, namrec dobil sem samo trditve in kratke fraze v obliki:
"Satan spi!". Kako utemeljujete vase trditve, da zla ni in smo mi tisti, ki produciramo zlo?

Jezus je izganjal demone, ce pozorno beremo Sv. pismo, kje so proargumenti, da jih ni? Kako si to razlagate? :(

Naj to razumem, da ostajate samo pri neutemeljenih spekulacijah in domnevah, se pravi BLEFIRANJE Gape in Ten-nej, ali pa raje molcita, ce ne vesta odgovora?

???

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by DylanDog on 17.08.2003 at 17:14:47

exorcist wrote on 17.08.2003 at 16:55:59:

Torej, kako in na cem temelji vas argument, da zla v personalizirani obliki ni,

A je?

Kje?, tukaj?, tam pri tebi?, tu pri meni?, povsod?, zakaj ga se nisem srecal?(razen sosede ;D), tell me, podaj mi znanje, tell me ..

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 17.08.2003 at 17:28:38

DylanDog wrote on 17.08.2003 at 17:14:47:

A je?

Kje?, tukaj?, tam pri tebi?, tu pri meni?, povsod?, zakaj ga se nisem srecal?(razen sosede ;D), tell me, podaj mi znanje, tell me ..

Ravno taki me tukaj na Gape forumu razocarate, ki sami ne veste odgovorov, pa se posmehujete, ko hocem obrazlozitev in utemeljitev vasih lastnih trditev, tez. Na cem pa potem zidate, kje so temelji templja, struktura gradu ni jasna, vse je zamegljeno, relativno, netocno? Stojite nekateri morda na zivem pesku, pa se sami ne veste ocenit situacije, kaj se nahaja po vami ali kako? :P

Kar nekaj casa sem bil na enem izmed katoliskih forumov, iskal vecne odgovore in postavljal vprasanja, se navelical, ker sem prisel do nekega finisha, zato sem presedlal sem, ker me je zanimal raznolikost in pestrost mnenj. Sedaj pa sem zopet stagniram na mrtvi tocki. Dobim odgovre ala mislis si, pa ne vem niti kaj mehko, niti trdo, kaj je mlahavo, kaj je zgoraj in kaj spodaj....

Najbolje je, da postanem ateist, v kolikor se nisem, ce iscem odgovore, pa mi na njih ne zna nihce odgovorit. Kakor nekoga postavim pred zid, tema, in ce so vprasanja samo malo sofisticirana (zapletena), tema, in ce malo zamajem rdeco nit Gape foruma, tema.... Razocaranje... :P :-[

???

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by DylanDog on 17.08.2003 at 17:31:58

Ravno zato, jaz ne vem da bi zlo obstajalo v taksni obliki, ..ce ti ves me poduci, podaj mi znanje....

DylanDog wrote on 17.08.2003 at 17:14:47:

A je?

Kje?, tukaj?, tam pri tebi?, tu pri meni?, povsod?, zakaj ga se nisem srecal?(razen sosede ;D), tell me, podaj mi znanje, tell me ..

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 17.08.2003 at 17:36:45

Znanje lahko podam le tvoji sestri ali pa punci, pri tebi bo bolj tezko slo, ker se mi zdi, da si bolj trd oreh.

Prosim ne mi pisati takih replik, hocem samo odgovre na zgoraj postavljeno vprasanje, pa cakam, pa cakam....

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by DylanDog on 17.08.2003 at 17:46:16

Mhmmm... (..sorry, no energy for you.)

exorcist wrote on 17.08.2003 at 17:36:45:

Znanje lahko podam le tvoji sestri ali pa punci

..mislim da ne mores.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 17.08.2003 at 17:49:23

DylanDog wrote on 17.08.2003 at 17:46:16:

Mhmmm... (..sorry, no energy for you.)

..mislim da ne mores.

Pri predmetu picologija, sem jako dober. ;D

Ajd Dylan, sem ze rekel, da se mi ne da odgovarjat, se manj pa iskat nekaksnih imaginarnih konfliktov, ki unicijo dialog. Topic sem naredil z drugim namenom, da dobim obrazlozitve, odgovore...

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by DylanDog on 17.08.2003 at 17:51:57

DylanDog wrote on 17.08.2003 at 17:46:16:

Mhmmm... (..sorry, no energy for you.)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 17.08.2003 at 18:57:59

Satan v Bibliji:

Quote:

1. Zah 3,1
Nato mi je pokazal Ješúa, vélikega duhovnika. Stal je pred GOSPODOVIM angelom, na njegovi desni pa je stal satan, da bi ga tožil.

2. Zah 3,2
GOSPOD pa je rekel satanu: »GOSPOD naj te ukori, o satan, naj te ukori GOSPOD, ki je izvolil Jeruzalem. Mar ni to ogorek, ki so ga potegnili iz ognja?«

3. Job 1,6
Napočil je dan, ko so prišli božji sinovi in se postavili pred GOSPODA. Med njimi je prišel tudi satan.

4. Job 1,7
GOSPOD je rekel satanu: »Od kod prihajaš?« Satan je odgovoril GOSPODU in rekel: »Potikal sem se po zemlji in se sprehajal po njej.«

5. Job 1,9
Satan pa je odgovoril GOSPODU in rekel: »Mar se Job zastonj boji Boga?

6. Job 1,12
In GOSPOD je rekel satanu: »Glej, vse, kar ima, naj bo v tvoji roki, le nanj ne izteguj svoje roke!« In satan je odšel izpred GOSPODOVEGA obličja.

7. Job 2,1
Napočil je dan, ko so prišli božji sinovi in se postavili pred GOSPODA. Med njimi je prišel tudi satan in se postavil pred GOSPODA.

8. Job 2,2
GOSPOD je rekel satanu: »Od kod prihajaš?« Satan je odgovoril GOSPODU in rekel: »Potikal sem se po zemlji in se sprehajal po njej.«

9. Job 2,4
Satan pa je odgovoril GOSPODU in rekel: »Kožo za kožo! Za svoje življenje da človek vse, kar ima.

10. Job 2,7
Satan je odšel izpred GOSPODOVEGA obličja in udaril Joba s hudimi uljesi od podplatov njegovih nog do temena.

11. 1 Krn 21,1
Tedaj je Satan vstal proti Izraelcem in spodbodel Davida, naj prešteje Izraela.

12. Mt 4,10
Jezus mu je tedaj dejal: »Poberi se, satan, kajti pisano je: Gospoda, svojega Boga, môli in njemu samemu služi!«

13. Mt 12,26
Če torej satan izganja satana, je proti sebi razdeljen – kako bo potem obstalo njegovo kraljestvo?

14. Mt 16,23
On pa se je obrnil in rekel Petru: »Poberi se! Za menoj, satan! V spotiko si mi, ker ne misliš na to, kar je Božje, ampak kar je človeško.«

15. Mr 1,13
V puščavi je bil štirideset dni in satan ga je skušal. Bil je med zvermi in angeli so mu stregli.

16. Mr 3,23
Tedaj jih je poklical k sebi in jim v prispodobah govoril: »Kako more satan izganjati satana?

17. Mr 3,26
Če se torej satan vzdigne sam proti sebi in se razdeli, ne more obstati, ampak je konec z njim.

18. Mr 4,15
Ob poti, kjer se seje beseda, so tisti, ki sicer slišijo, toda brž pride satan in izruje vanje vsejano besedo.

19. Mr 8,33
On pa se je obrnil, pogledal po učencih in pograjal Petra: »Poberi se! Za menoj, satan, ker ne misliš na to, kar je Božje, ampak na to, kar je človeško!«

20. Lk 11,18
Če pa je tudi satan razdeljen proti sebi, kako bo obstalo njegovo kraljestvo, ko pravite, da z Bélcebubom izganjam demone?

21. Lk 13,16
Te pa, ki je Abrahamova hči in jo je satan zvezal za – poslušajte – osemnajst let, ni bilo potrebno rešiti te vezi na sobotni dan?«

22. Lk 22,3
Tedaj je šel satan v Juda, ki se je imenoval Iškarijot in je bil izmed števila dvanajsterih.

23. Lk 22,31
»Simon, Simon! Glej, satan vas je zahteval, da bi vas presejal kakor pšenico.

24. Jn 13,27
Ko je ta vzel grižljaj, je šel satan vanj. Jezus mu je tedaj rekel: »Kar nameravaš storiti, stôri hitro.«

25. Apd 5,3
Peter mu je rekel: »Hananija, zakaj je satan napolnil tvoje srce, da si lagal Svetemu Duhu in si pridržal del izkupička od zemljišča?

26. 1 Kor 7,5
Ne odtegujta se drug drugemu, razen morda za nekaj časa, in sicer sporazumno, da se bosta lahko posvetila molitvi. Potem pa bodita spet skupaj, da vaju zaradi vajinega pomanjkljivega samoobvladovanja ne bi skušal satan.

27. 2 Kor 2,11
da nas ne bi ukanil satan. Njegove misli pa nam niso neznane.

28. 2 Kor 11,14
Nič čudnega, saj se tudi sam satan preoblači v angela luči.

29. 1 Tes 2,18
Zato smo hoteli priti k vam – vsaj jaz, Pavel, več kot enkrat –, a satan nam je to preprečil.

30. Raz 2,13
Vem, kje prebivaš: tam, kjer ima satan svoj prestol. Vendar se držiš mojega imena in nisi zatajil vere vame niti v dneh, ko je bil Antípa, moj zvesti pričevalec, umorjen tam pri vas, kjer domuje satan.

31. Raz 12,9
Veliki zmaj, stara kača, ki se imenuje Hudič in Satan in ki zapeljuje vesoljni svet, je bil vržen na zemljo, z njim vred pa so bili vrženi tudi njegovi angeli.

32. Raz 20,7
Ko pa se dopolni tisoč let, bo satan izpuščen iz svoje ječe.

V neki drugi knjigi pa sem bral, da odstaja tudi zlata gora ::)

Vendar pa ne verjamem niti v eno niti v drugo, dobro je lahko samo dobro za nekoga, zlo pa je lahko samo zlo za nekoga.

Niti eno niti drugo samo zase ne obstaja.

Ti si tisti, ki se odloča, kaj je zate dobro in slabo. In nekaj, kar je zate dobro je za nekoga drugega slabo, kar je zate zlo pa je spet za nekoga lahko dobro.

Vsekakor bi se leahko še naprej dogovarjali o obstoju boga in hudiča - dokler je bog preveč dober pač ne more delovati brez svojega antipola hudča (le kako bi neskončno vsemogočni dobri Bog dopuščal bedo - kriv je hudič).

Resnica je nekoliko drugačna: stvari se ne odvijajo med dobrim in zlim, temveč med pozitivnim in negativnim (v smislu + in -), brez kakršnih koli dodatnih moralistično-etičnih ali teoloških in teleoloških konotacij.

uživaj!

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by gape on 18.08.2003 at 01:29:00

kolkr štekam, je iz meni neznanega razloga, cerkev proglasila angelsko entiteto, ki jo poznamo pod imenom lucifer (prinašalec luči) za hudega duha - satana.

se reče ... luč je proglasila za satana ... belo je proglasila za hudiča ... zakaj ne vem ... glih to raziskujem zdej ...

paradox ( in terms ??? )

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 08:28:32

Satan, pride iz hebrejščine "satan" - upirati se, to je nadangel, ki se je uprl Jahveju, ker je bil nevoščljiv ljudem (le kako jih ima Bog lahko raje kot njega). Lucifer je njegovo drugo ime (latinsko iz lux, lucis, ferre - nositi; torej nosilec luči, v astrologiji pa pomeni tudi zvezdo danico ali Venero ali zvezdo večernico).

uživajte!

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by gape on 18.08.2003 at 10:06:03

t wrote on 18.08.2003 at 08:28:32:

kolkr vem je njegovo prvo ime lucifer
zakaj, s čim, se je uprl?
česa jim je bil nevoščljiv?

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 10:48:20

gape wrote on 18.08.2003 at 10:06:03:

kolkr vem je njegovo prvo ime lucifer
zakaj, s čim, se je uprl?
česa jim je bil nevoščljiv?

Niti ne - Lucifer prihaja iz latinščine, satan pa iz hebrejščine in v svetem pismu se pojavlja samo kot Satan.

bp

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 18.08.2003 at 11:22:19

t wrote on 18.08.2003 at 10:48:20:

Niti ne - Lucifer prihaja iz latinščine, satan pa iz hebrejščine in v svetem pismu se pojavlja samo kot Satan.

bp

Angel Lucifer (luc) postane Satan (upornik) sele po kozmicnem uporu protu Bogu.

http://www.gape.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=vera;action=display;num=1061198380

;)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 11:32:07

DEMON: (gr. daimon)
1. pri primitvnih ljudstvih nadnaravna, dobra ali zla bitja;

2. pri starih grkih najprj bog nasploh, pozneje pa manjša božanstva (po stopnji med bogom in človekom; bil je tudi nekaj takšnega kot človekov notranji navdih - genij (Sokratov daimon)

3. v krščanstvu padli angel; figurativno zli duh, satan, zla strast ali nagnjenje. Psevdo Dionizij Aeropagit pravi, da so demoni Angeli (lat. angelus - sel), ki so izdali svojo naravo, vendar niso hudobni ne po izvoru ne po naravi.

Demon simbolizira razsvetlitev, ki presega običajne norme, saj omogoča, da se vidi dlje in zanesljiveje - drez vsakih dvomov. Dovoljuje pa tudi kršenje razumskih pravil v imenu transcendentalne svetlobe, ki ne vodi samo v svet spoznanja, temveč tudi v svet usode.

HUDIČ:
(slov. izpeljano iz hud v pomenu slab) je simbol la, zlobe in hudega in simbolizira vse tiste sile, ki vznemirjajo, mračijo ali slabijo zavest in jo potiskajo v ambivalentno: je središče noči, v nasprotju z bogom, ki je središče svetlobe.
Hudič je kot ločevalec (gr. diabolos - "ki ločuje" izpolnjuje dolžnost, k ije natančna antiteza dolžnosti simbola - uspeti.

SATAN:
1. med hudiči in demoni po antomaziji (satan hebr. nasprotnik) označuje nasprotnika, ki je prav tako porogljiv kot hudoben. Prevajalci judovske Biblije pravijio, da izraz nasprotnik izhaja iz pravnega jezika. Izraz je potem čedalje bolj označeval po svojem bistvu hudobno bitje, postal je lastno ime za sile zla, sinonim za zmaja, hudiča in kačo, druge oznake in obliko duha zla. Satan prizkuša človeka, da bi ga potisnil v greh, kot je to storila kača v genezi.

2. V hermetičnih izročilih je Satan drugo ime za Saturna kot načela materializacije duha. (šele tu je Satan duh, ki involvira, ki pade v materijo, tu je Luciferjev padec - tu se prične mešanje ravni in šele zaradi tega lahko govoriš, da je bil prej Lucifer: boš moral še malo preštudirari exo ;))

3. Za katare je Satan demiurg, stvarnik sveta. Prikazuje se prerokom in jim govori, saj dobrega boga (boga, ki je ideja najvišjega dobrega - Platon in ekipca).
Zagotovo pa obstajajo povezave med judovsko asketsko miselnostjo 12. stoletja in katarsko doktrino, kar zadeva kozmično vlogo Satana, kakor tudi med kabalistično demonologijo in katarsko demonologijo, ki zadeva Satanove žene.

uživajte!

(Satan je blazn zmatran)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 11:37:18

exorcist wrote on 18.08.2003 at 11:22:19:

Angel Lucifer (luc) postane Satan (upornik) sele po kozmicnem uporu protu Bogu.

Glej zgoraj ::)

Besede Lucifer v Bibliji (v izvorniku) ni, je pa kača, in Satan (jebi ga Židi takrat še niso znali latinsko) :)

"Lucefer" se prvič pojavi v 4. stoletju (glej linke in teksta spodaj).

še link:
Lucifer - izvor
http://www.cresourcei.org/lucifer.html

Ali je Lucifer Satan?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r9810q.htm

uživaj!

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 13:08:15

Quote:

The name Lucifer has often been understood to be another name for the devil or the satan. This identification has a long history in the church, going back to at least the fourth century. Its origin is actually from a passage in the Old Testament from the book of Isaiah that apparently speaks of someone being cast out of heaven because of pride. Since there is a reference in the New Testament to the devil being cast out of heaven (Rev 12:9-12; cf. Lk 10:18 ), it was assumed that the Isaiah passage referred to the same thing.

The passage (NRSV): 14:12

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

In the King James translation, verse 12 reads:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here is where we find the name Lucifer. The term Lucifer comes not from the Hebrew or even from the Greek translation (Septuagint), but from the 4th century AD Latin translation of this verse:

quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in 4th century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star, derived from a term meaning "bright light," or the verbal form "to shine brightly." The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean "bright," especially associated with the sky:

Job 11:17: And your life will be brighter than the noonday; its darkness will be like the morning.

2 Peter 1:19: You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

It also occurs in the plural (luciferum) in Job 38:32 to refer to an astral constellation. Other forms of the word are used in similar ways to refer to light or the stars. And this reflects the Greek (Septuagint) translation’s use of heosphoros, "morning star" to translate the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12.

There is some debate about the exact origin of the original Hebrew word helel in Isaiah 14:12. But the strongest possibility is that it comes from a verbal root that means "to shine brightly," as well as "to offer praise" (where we get the phrase hallelu yah. In any case, the noun form is the Hebrew term for the morning star, in most cases the planet Venus. Both the second century BC Greek translation in the Septuagint, and the 4th century AD Latin translation in the Latin Vulgate understand this to be the meaning of the Hebrew word helel.

OK, so how did we get from Venus, the morning star, to Lucifer being associated with the devil, especially since that term is used in positive ways even in the NT? Well, if we begin with some NT passages as the best way to interpret the OT, and add some of our assumptions, it is not a long trip at all.

In 2 Cor 11:14, Paul writes about false apostles:

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

And in Luke 10:18-19, at the return of the 70 as they comment on their success, Jesus says:

And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you."

So, without ever stopping to examine either of those passages to see what was being said in them, and what was meant by the references, we could conclude that the devil/the satan is somehow associated with light and the sky.

If we then add the passage from Revelation 12 about the devil/satan/red dragon/serpent, the symbols begin to run together, again before we have done any real study on any of these passages separately to see what each of them are saying. In Revelation 12 the red dragon with seven heads appears in the sky, and his tail sweeps down a third of the stars to earth, and is then later cast down to the earth along with his angels. Of course, at this point, a great many assumptions are introduced into the reading even of the Revelation passage, even though this is obviously extremely figurative language; we just assume what it means.

By adding these three passages together without regard to context, and read them as if they were all speaking in the same way about the same thing to make the same point, we can conclude that we have here a jigsaw picture of a long ago historical event described in great detail (but of course we have to put the pieces together from various bits scattered through literature written 800 years apart!).

Then, if we take that assumption about the meaning of all these texts, and the assumption that adding texts together is the way to understand them (a drastic perversion of the "Scripture interprets Scripture" principle!), and bring that back to the Isaiah text, then it is very easy to reach the conclusion that Isaiah is also describing the same event. There are similar metaphors of light, stars, conflict, and being cast down. Earlier translations (KJV) mistakenly took the Hebrew term sheol in v. 15 as "hell" (in Hebrew it is simply the place where the dead go, a metaphor for death, specifically burial; see Sheol, Hell, and the Dead), which is another piece of the puzzle. So of course, since there is no mention of the "devil" or the "satan" in Isaiah, "Lucifer" must be the name Isaiah uses for him! So, Isaiah is talking about the devil being cast out of heaven!

This is the position that prevailed throughout much of the history of the church until the time of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, when we began asking more direct questions of the biblical text. We also gained more information in new archaeological discoveries of ancient civilizations, including thousands of tablets from Mesopotamia giving us a great deal of information about ancient Mesopotamian and Babylonian religion.

We learned that Babylonian religion was an astral religion, closely related to Canaanite practices, although more focused on the sun, moon, and stars and their motion than on the immediate cycles of nature as it was in Canaan. The Babylonians worshipped as gods the manifestations of celestial bodies. It is from Babylon that we get the signs of the Zodiac representing the constellations. We now know that the two terms used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, were Babylonian astral deities (which is reflected in most modern translations).

Now, if we look at the text of Isaiah 14 in context, and without the assumptions we brought to it from the NT, the meaning of the passage becomes more obvious and goes a radically different direction. The book of Isaiah has spent the first chapters denouncing the sins of Israel and its failure to be God’s people. There have also been expectations that God will work in new ways in the life of the nation to help them recover their mission as God’s people. One of those ways would be through a new king to replace the corrupt Ahaz. Because of his pro-Assyrian policies, the nation was teetering upon the brink of catastrophe as Assyria expanded to the West.

Isaiah 13 begins a long section of the book known as "Oracles Against Foreign Nations." This is a standardized format in the prophets for universalizing responsibility to God. Not only Israel, but all nations, were accountable to God and would fall under the same judgment Israel would. As is typical in other prophetic books (Amos, Jeremiah, Ezekiel) not all of these oracles come from the same time period as Isaiah of Jerusalem, but they do follow a similar pattern and serve the same function in the book.

Isaiah 13 is part of the oracle directed against Babylon, probably from a time after the Exile. In very flowery, poetic, and highly figurative language, Babylon is denounced for her arrogance and lack of concern for other nations as she built her empire. It is interesting that in 13:10, specific mention is made of the failure of the Babylonian gods (constellations, sun, moon) to help them when God calls then to accountability.

Chapter 14 then begins with the promise of Israel’s return from Babylonian exile, a theme that dominates the middle section of Isaiah (40-55). Part of that return would involve the downfall of the tyrant king of Babylon (v. 4; probably Nebuchadrezzer; for the same language used of a later Babylonian ruler, Belshazzar, see Dan 5:20). In that context, verses 12-21 are a poetic picture of that downfall. Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, then, are references to the Babylonian gods who could not save the king, and are themselves to be cast down. In fact, there is probably a reference here to the habit of ancient Near Eastern kings proclaiming themselves incarnations of the gods; with the fall of the kings, the gods also fell, often physically as the images that represented them were pulled down and destroyed.

So, the Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the NT passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the NT, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah.

http://www.cresourcei.org/lucifer.html

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Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 13:09:23

pa še tole:

Quote:

The word “Lucifer” is used in the King James Version only once, in Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” is helel (or heylel), from the root, hâlâl, meaning “to shine” or “to bear light.” Keil and Delitzsch noted that “[i]t derives its name in other ancient languages also from its striking brilliancy, and is here called ben-shachar (son of the dawn)... (1982, 7:311). However, the KJV translators did not translate helel as Lucifer because of something inherent in the Hebrew term itself. Instead, they borrowed the name from Jerome’s translation of the Bible (A.D. 383-405) known as the Latin Vulgate. Jerome, likely believing that the term was describing the planet Venus, employed the Latin term “Lucifer” (“light-bearing”) to designate “the morning star” (Venus). Only later did the suggestion originate that Isaiah 14:12ff. was speaking of the devil. Eventually, the name Lucifer came to be synonymous with Satan. But is Satan “Lucifer”?

No, he is not. The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to “take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!’” In his commentary on Isaiah, Albert Barnes explained that God’s wrath was kindled against the king because the ruler “intended not to acknowledge any superior either in heaven or earth, but designed that himself and his laws should be regarded as supreme” (1950, 1:272). The chest-pounding boast of the impudent potentate was:

I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High (vss. 13-14).
As a result of his egotistical self-deification, the pagan monarch eventually would experience both the collapse of his kingdom and the loss of his life—an ignominious end that is described in vivid and powerful terms. “Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming,” the prophet proclaimed to the once-powerful king. And when the ruler finally descends into his eternal grave, captives of that hidden realm will taunt him by saying, “Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?” (vs. 16). He is denominated as a “man” (vs. 16) who would die in disrepute and whose body would be buried, not in a king’s sarcophagus, but in pits reserved for the downtrodden masses (vss. 19-20). Worms would eat his body, and hedgehogs would trample his grave (vss. 11,23).

It was in this context that Isaiah referred to the king of Babylon as “the morning star” (“son of the morning”; “son of the dawn”) to depict the once-shining-but-now-dimmed, once-lofty-but-now-diminished, status of the (soon to be former) ruler. In his Bible Commentary, E.M. Zerr observed that such phrases were “...used figuratively in this verse to symbolize the dignity and splendor of the Babylonian monarch. His complete overthrow was likened to the falling of the morning star” (1954, 3:265). This kind of phraseology should not be surprising since “[i]n the O.T., the demise of corrupt national powers is frequently depicted under the imagery of falling heavenly luminaries (cf. Isa. 13:10; Ezek. 32:7), hence, quite appropriately in this context the Babylonian monarch is described as a fallen star [cf. ASV]” (Jackson, 1987, 23:15).

Nowhere within the context of Isaiah 14, however, is Satan depicted as Lucifer. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In his commentary on Isaiah, Burton Coffman wrote: “We are glad that our version (ASV) leaves the word Lucifer out of this rendition, because...Satan does not enter into this passage as a subject at all” (1990, p. 141). The Babylonian ruler was to die and be buried—fates neither of which Satan is destined to endure. The king was called “a man” whose body was to be eaten by worms, but Satan, as a spirit, has no physical body. The monarch lived in and abided over a “golden city” (vs. 4), but Satan is the monarch of a kingdom of spiritual darkness (cf. Ephesians 6:12). And so on.

The context presented in Isaiah 4:4-16 not only does not portray Satan as Lucifer, but actually militates against it. Keil and Delitzsch firmly proclaimed that “Lucifer,” as a synonym, “is a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Babel, on account of the early date of the Babylonian culture, which reached back as far as the grey twilight of primeval times, and also because of its predominate astrological character” (1982, p. 312). They then correctly concluded that “Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, was derived from this passage...without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders” (pp. 312-313).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r9810q.htm

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Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 18.08.2003 at 14:38:11

OK, ampak mene bolj zanima obstoj demonov, saj jih Jezus izganja iz ljudi, ti ga celo prosijo naj jih ne unici.
???.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 18.08.2003 at 15:38:34

Če te je pred 100 leti vrgla božjast, je velika večina ljudi bila prepričana, da so te obsedli duhovi.

Sedaj pa je znanost nekoliko napredovala in duhov, ki bi obsedali ni več.

Exo, živimo v letu 2003, sedaj se zadevi reče duševna bolezen.

(pa tudi dandanes bi našel koga, ki s svojo močjo lahko zdravi duševne bolezni)

uživaj!

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 18.08.2003 at 21:15:18

t wrote on 18.08.2003 at 15:38:34:

Ja, saj se strinjam v dolocenih tockah s tabo, ampak v Bibliji jasno pise, da je Jezus nagnal zle duhove v divje svinje, ki so nato ponorele in se utopile. To me zanima? Tukaj ima tvoja obrazlozitev lapsus? Zakj so potem tukaj omenjeni sploh zli duhove, celo predstavijo se pod imenom Legija in kaj imajo potem tukaj za iskati tukaj divje svinje? Gre morda za povrsinsko razumevanje biblije?:-/

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 18.08.2003 at 21:30:49

wrote on 18.08.2003 at 21:22:11:

No, jaz bi pa takole rekel, kaj imako svinje tam za iskat.
Ja, so tako kot ti, vedno ob nepravem času na nepravem mestu ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Pač Exo, ali misliš, da je križanec res kaj izgnal, potem si naiven kot divja svinja :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Jezus je bil pravi barabin ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Potem ni en sam stavek v Bibliji verodostojen ali kako? Pravzaprav pa gre tukaj za vero, verjames ali ne verjames...

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 18.08.2003 at 21:41:24

wrote on 18.08.2003 at 21:36:17:

Res je Exo, gre za vero, ampak, jaz v to pokvarjenost ne verjamem.

Pač, vsaki po svoje, ane ???

Mislism, ko beres Novo zavezo in vidis Jezusove ideje, so mi res enkratne, zame je on vzornik, zacetnik/predhodnik socializma.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by bp on 20.08.2003 at 14:13:12

http://www.gape.org/geeklog/public_html/article.php?story=20030120205934354

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 20.08.2003 at 16:33:59

wrote on 20.08.2003 at 14:13:12:

http://www.gape.org/geeklog/public_html/article.php?story=20030120205934354

Zal to se nikakor ne pojasnjuje dejstva, da je Jezus izganjal zle duhove, obujal mrtve, delal cudeze....
???

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by gape on 21.08.2003 at 00:43:18

pa dobr ...

kaj je zdej s tem hudičem, satanom ???

to gape ni nič drugega, kot tisto, kar ti imenuješ ego !!!

jest sm tisti, ki se odloča ali bom delal dobro ali slabo
in glede na to sem 'bog' ali 'hudič'

verjamem, da se lahko na mojo nepopolnost, v smislu učenca popolnosti, nalepijo tudi entitete vredne jezusovega metanja njih v svinje, al kako že.

ta nepopolnost, tisti trenutki, ki gredo mimo mene neozaveščeni, to ...

zdej ... kam boš uvrstil 'zle duhove', tiste ki jih je izganjal jezus ne vem. med moje vzorce? med astralne entitete, ki so se napopale na moje vzorce?
... ne vem ... lahko se še neki časa hecaš in skušaš dokazat da so ti 'zli duhovi' izven tebe (sej tud so ... v drugih) ... pa se boš zapletu ...

tisti zli duhovi, ki se tičejo tebe, so v tebi ... so tudi zunaj tebe in vplivajo nate, ker si ti tako izbral in ker smo na tistih nivojih vsi povezani ... je tko itak brez veze govort o men al pa teb al pa komerkoli (osebno) ... mi smo mi ... v bistvu nisi nič in hkrati si vse.

ampak ... tega se na da razumet ... mislm da se ... če se hoče, če se odpreš tem nivojem, se da ...

si osebnost ... postaneš nič ... dosežeš vse ... izničiš vse ... in si eno z vsem.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 21.08.2003 at 10:08:27

gape wrote on 21.08.2003 at 00:43:18:

Jaz to gledam z judaisticno-krscanskega vidika, zato me zanima tudi interpretacija nekoga, ki bi zavzel tudi to perspektivo. Stvar se, da na vec nacinov razlozit in je res, kar si rekel, da smo drug drugemu "peklenscki", no ampak jaz se bolj osredotocam na krscanski aspekt pojmovanja zla. :)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 21.08.2003 at 10:19:00

wrote on 21.08.2003 at 10:11:05:

KRŠČANSTVO JE ZLO

ZLO JE KRŠČANSTVO

VEDNO BO

IN VEDNO JE BILO

:D ;D :D ;D

Mogoce je zlo v tebi pa ga projeciras na nekoga drugega, isces gresne kozle. Na to opcijo pa se nisi pomislil ali kaj? Zlo je v prvobitni obliki v nas samih, Imas dobre kristjane in slabe, katerih je vec lahko samo ugibamo. zakj iscemo zlo vedno zunaj sebe? ;)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 21.08.2003 at 10:29:45

wrote on 21.08.2003 at 10:26:46:

Ja, ja, zdej pa so že krščanske grešne duše začele kot papiga, da je zlo v tebi, a to v vašem svetem pismu piše ?
Jaz praktično pomislim na vse, samo še vedno je pa zgornje napisano pravilno in drži kot pribito na križ.
Imaš samo slabe kristjane, dobrih ni in jih ne bo.
Zlo se ne išče, zlo je v krščanstvu in krščanstvo je poneumilo ljudi do te mere, da je že celi svet zmešan zaradi njih.
Samo v krščanstvu povzdigujejo zlo do neverjetnih višin, vsepovsod zlo, zlo je to, zlo je ono, samo zlo, zlo.
Jebem ti tako vero ki živi na besedi zlo.
Sami pa kradejo in ubijajo v imenu boga.
Čudno.

Sveto pismo pravi: "Prosite in boste dobili! Iščite in boste našli! Trkajte in se vam bo odprlo! Kajti vsak, kdor prosi, prejme; in kdor išče, najde; in kdor trka, se mu odpre" ;D

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by gape on 21.08.2003 at 10:33:29

krščanski aspekt je to glih poblodu, zakaj ne vem, praš svojga duhovnika zakaj so moral personificirat zlo, da se zdej lahko borijo proti njemu in jim pol zmanjka energije za borbo za dobro.

se reče ... krščanski aspekt je do konca poblojen, mislm da ti je blodnjo (in nje nastanek) čist zadost dobr predstavu te-nay.

probi se poučit kaj gape imenuje ego in pol pejd v tej luči brat un prvi quote od tena ... na prvi strani se mi zdi ... nujno se je treba zavedat, da je biblija glih tko kt vse ostalo, samo metafora za Resnične dogodke (gito izvzemam, da se ne bojo fatje name spravl, k se mi res ne da) ... it's all about the metaphores.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by exorcist on 21.08.2003 at 10:50:53

wrote on 21.08.2003 at 10:38:46:

Aha, pol se pravi, nekdo ubije zaradi svojega užitka, ker se mu je pač tako zahotelo in gre v vašo bedno cerkev in se spove vašemu bednemu župniku in na koncu je čist pred bogom in pred zakonom, samo prosit mora, lepo, čudno, da se še niso začeli križarsko spovedni pohodi ???

Sam vseeno, palicaji te pa zaprejo, sodišče te pa obsodi, če ga preveč serješ, kako, to, če si se pa recimo spovedal, kaj so palicaji in sodišča nad vašim bogom, ja kakšen je pa pol ta vaš bog ???

Ti pricakujes brezmadezno idealizirano Cerkev, ni ga cloveka, ki ne bi gresil, vsi delamo napake. Res pa je, da imam tudi sam obcutek, da vcasih da INSTITUCIJA potuho, protektorat oziroma zascitnistvo nekaterim, uzivajo imuniteto, kar pa ni v skladu z Jezusovim naukom. Jaz ne scitim cerkvene institucije, ampak vsi verniki pa niso slabo, imas tudi dobro klasje.

Boga si ne more nihce prilascat, Bog je samo en in od vseh nas, vsi smo enaki pred Bogom. Eni mu pravijo Alah, drugi Buda, tretji zopet nekaj drugega

Ce se ze skusas poboljsati, da bi delal dobro si KRISTJAN, ker se dejasnko drzis 10 univerzalnih bozjih zapovedi. Eni se imajo za verne pa sploh niso verni, drugi se tolcejo po prsih, delajo pa povsem drugo, tretji pa zopet ne hodijo k masi pa so globoko verni. ;)

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by ten-nej on 21.08.2003 at 13:37:15

exorcist wrote on 21.08.2003 at 10:19:00:

Zlo je v prvobitni obliki v nas samih,

No vidiš, saj gre ::)

Zlo je v nas samih in njegovo pravo ime je NEUMNOST

(neumnost ali ignoranca, nezmožnost oziroma nezainteresiranost za iskanje spoznanja, nezmožmnost opiranja na lasten um in mišljenja s svojo glavo)

uživajte!

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by bp on 21.08.2003 at 15:33:23

gape wrote on 21.08.2003 at 10:33:29:

... it's all about the metaphores.

Cel moj svet je tako v pretežni meri sestavljen iz metafor.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by formless on 24.10.2003 at 12:30:03

exorcist wrote on 13.08.2003 at 13:59:37:

Zame je Satan resničen, vendar Satana ne vidim kot nekaj personificiranega, individualnega. Kršanstvo je naredilo to napako, da je tako boga kot satana poosebilo.
Satan je zame materija treh nižjih svetov, torej fizične, astralne, mentalne. Ker vsaka stvar premore neko stopnjo zavesti in volje, lahko skupek vseh sil te nižje materije imenujem Satan. In kaj se zgodi... duša se inkarnira v ta trojni svet maje in se obda z nižjo materijo. Ta materija premore lastno voljo, ima lastne silnice in tako deluje na človekovo zavest. Na mentalni ravni nastane ego, na astralni sebičnost, na fizični pa pestijo raznorazni nagoni in bolezni. Če človek ne premore dovolj stika z višjimi svetovi, ga satan tako močno prevzame, da pozabi na svoj pravi jaz, svoj izvor in vse plemenito v sebi (kar izvira iz višjih svetov). Postane orodje Satana in izpolnjuje njegovo voljo.
Demoni so v razmerju do satana to, kar je človek v razmerju do boga. Individualiziran del satana. Delček nižje materije z lastno zavestjo. Demoni se limajo na človekovo auro in vsiljujejo svojo voljo, saj človek na ta način napaja demone. Ezoterika jih imenuje elementali.

Evo, tko da je nekdo, ki verjame v Satana na objektiven način.

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by mind on 24.10.2003 at 13:18:12

formless:

Quote:

Kršanstvo je naredilo to napako, da je tako boga kot satana poosebilo.
Satan je zame materija treh nižjih svetov

jaz nekako razumem Satana kot materialno manifestacijo duše, to se pravi pojavitev izvorno čiste duše v materialnem svetu

dušo torej zaradi "neznanja" prekrije materija

naša (materialna) zavest je je prav tako obdana/prekrita z materijo

vendar pa se ne strinjam glede nepersonaliziranega Boga

materialni svet je posledica, duhovni svet je izvorni svet

nekaj kar obstaja v posledici more prav tako obstajati v izvoru

mi (individualne duše) imamo v nepogojenem stanju (ko se duša ne manifestira skozi materijo) prav tako svoje aktivnosti, svojo individualnostr, svobodno izbiro, svojo osebnost

tako ima tudi Bog svojo osebnost, s to razliko da je On Vrhovna oseba, saj iz Njega vse izhaja (tudi mi ) in se vse v Njega vrača

pogojenosti se lahko duša reši le z osebno/peronificirano ljubeznijo do Boga, ki ni materialno pogojena ampak je duhovna/transcendenalna/večna

formless:

Quote:

Če človek ne premore dovolj stika z višjimi svetovi, ga satan tako močno prevzame, da pozabi na svoj pravi jaz, svoj izvor in vse plemenito v sebi (kar izvira iz višjih svetov). Postane orodje Satana in izpolnjuje njegovo voljo.

človek se lahko na podlagi svobodne volje odloči služiti Njegovi zunanji (materija) ali Njegovi notranji duhovni energiji

če se duša odloči (zaradi nevednosti) služiti Njegovi zunanji energiji jo prekrije Satan (materija)

tako pogojena duša služi materiji, se poistoveča z materialnim (grobim fizičnim in subtilnim telesom), skratka živi v iluziji, vednar iluzija ni mišljena kot neresničnost ampak je to dejanskost

ker je duša pogojena z materijo, se lahko izraža samo na podlagi egota, materialnega telesa

če se torej odločimo (s pomočjo egota) služiti Njegovi notranji duhovni energiji je to mogoče le z ljubeznijo

ta ljubezen, če je iskrena, ni materialne narave saj so čuti in um usmerjeni na Njega, naš Izvor

gre torej za zadovoljevanje Njega, ne nas

zavedat se je potrebno, da izključno z našim trudom ne moremo dosečt te ljubezni, potrebna je tudi Njegova milost, ki jo lahko pridobimo z iskrenostjo in ponižnostjo

krščanstvo po mojem mnenju dela "napako" s tem, ko usmerja človeka v lastno zadovoljstvo na podlagi ljubezni do Boga in sicer v smislu "daj nam naš vsakdanji kruh, odpusti nam naše grehe, daj nam zdravje, zadovoljstvo itd..itd..." kjer pozablja, da je naš namen služiti/zadovoljiti Njega in ne obratno

v iskreni ljubezni namreč ne sme biti potrebe po lastnem zadovoljstvu (poželjenje) ampak gre predvsem za zadovoljevanje drugega, na podlagi česar smo v končni fazi tudi sami zadovoljni

LP

Title: Re: Jezus in Satan
Post by gape on 24.10.2003 at 23:48:12

hvala hvala hvala